A conversation with my dad got me thinking: is it even possible for the Sabbath to be EVERY Saturday? It didn't seem possible. It seemed like it should change year to year. Then I looked up how the Hebrew calendar works. Here's what I understand:

The New Moon is the first day of each month, which makes every month 28 days or 4 weeks exactly (i don't think it always works out like that, but whatever) (in fact, now that i look at it, that's not true at all. Each full set of phases is supposed to be 29.5 days so that means... I don't know).

I guess i'm going off the assumption that the First day of the month would count as the first day of the week, but that kind of breaks down if the months aren't exactly 28 days long.

So really my question is: How does the Hebrew Calendar work??? (Or ultimately: how do Sabbaths work???) I know I said above that I looked that up, but apparently I am still clueless. I can't really trust modern Jewish Calendars because they could be placing the Sabbath on Saturday out of tradition. I thought that the days of the month matched up to days of the week, so that the first day of the month was the 1st, 8th, 15th, and 22nd days of the week were the first days of the weeks and the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days were Sabbaths. If that were so, Mondays were Sabbaths in January (or S'hvat according to Hebcal.com). On the one hand, having the Sabbath so tied to the calendar system would be helpful in convincing people to follow the Sabbath, but on the other hand, it wouldn't be every seven days, breaking the whole 6+1 pattern!

I think you're pretty much there Rob.

New moons I think are more a day of fellowship and celebration than a mandated sabbath. There was a post in the Torah thread about New moons if I remember correctly.

You seem to have it correct. The weekly Sabbat has been unchanged going back into ancient times. The ones associated with the miqras do change.

In fact that was a pronounced aspect of the crufixion. The Thursday night and Friday day we know was the 14th of Nisan or eve of Passover. The first day of Unleavened bread (Saturday 15 Nisan), a miqra sabbath which that year also happened to coincide with the weekly sabbath, making it a high sabbath. We can do the math based on what we know about the solar cycle and determine that 33 CE was a match for this event. The only question being whether it was April 1st as YY and Hebcal indicate or April 3rd as wikipedia and other calander conversions indicate. The warning about early dates in Hebcal makes me think the latter date is correct, but both are correct on day of the week and Hebrew calendar dates.

We have a thread or two on that subject a few months ago when we investigated that matter if you'd like more detail.

You're right, Theo, as to the meaninglessness of the Gregorian or Julian date (April 1 vs. April 3). But it was an epiphany to me to realize that there was nothing coincidental about the prototypical Feast of Unleavened Bread falling on a natural Sabbath. It didn't "just happen." Yahweh planned for it, ordained it, and predicted it in the Torah---and then gave Nehemiah a severe burden at precisely the right time so the Daniel 9 prophecy would work out to exactly the right year. Precisely 173,880 days after the edict this burden precipitated came out to Monday, Nisan 10, in 33 AD--the date of the triumphal entry, the day the sacrificial Lamb was to be "brought into the house." Passover fell, as we were instructed, four days later on Friday, and Chag Matzah came---as required by scripture---the next day, a natural Sabbath. Designated-Sabbath miqrym were okay for any other year, but in this year, the year of fulfillment, it had to be on a natural Sabbath, and it was. Yahweh doesn't have to fudge. He knows.

Fast forward precisely two thousand years (as required by Hosea 6:2) to the final fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles---another miqra with a specified Sabbath celebration. The seventh miqra; the seventh millennial milestone. The date? Saturday, October 8 (Tishri 15), 2033. Surprised? We shouldn't be.

kp

(I did not write this nor have any connection to it except to consider it a possibility)

This might be interesting to those who care. It comes from this website: http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/


Why I Am a Lunar Sabbatarian



The purpose of this brief essay concerning Sabbath observance is not for a thorough explanation about or rebuttal to those in opposition of this particular belief, but rather an explanation as to why I have chosen that this method of Sabbath observance aligns best with the Bible, having Scriptural precedent.



1) Yahweh’s calendar is mentioned in the Bible in a few placed (Genesis 1:14-18; Psalms 104:19; Jeremiah 31:35-36). In Genesis we are specifically told it is the lights in the heavens that are to be for time calculation, therefore, we should look to the lights (sun, moon, and stars) that the heavenly Father has created and made for His calendar.



2) Anyone who has a background in the Biblical calendar acknowledges that the year does not begin in January (the middle of winter), the month doesn’t begin arbitrarily, consisting of 31, 30, 29, or 28 days, and that the day doesn’t begin at midnight. I go a step further by not believing the week beings on the day known as Sunday. If the year, month, and day can be found solely by Yahweh’s calendar, why not the week and in turn the Sabbath?



3) We find in nature a phenomenon in the cycle of the moon. The moon begins at the new moon and then approximately 7 days (7.3) later builds to a half orb, followed by a full moon in seven more days, then down to a waning half in another seven days, followed by a final sliver seven days later. It is no coincidence Yahweh timed the moon to phase in these intervals, especially seeing the Bible tells us that nature itself teaches principles (Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 11:15).



4) We find in Scripture that the day of the new moon is a special day, separate and distinct from the working days and Sabbaths (Isaiah 66:22-23; Amos 8:5; 2 Kings 4:23). This is specifically found in Ezekiel 46:1. We clearly see in these passages that neither the Sabbath or the new moon are one of the six working days. This means the new moon must not fall on a working day, placing day 1 of any given Biblical month separate, followed by six working days (2nd - 7th of the month), and the followed by the weekly Sabbath (8th of the month). This is then followed by Sabbaths on the 15th, 22nd, and 29th of every moon, with a one or two day new moon festival at the end/beginning of each month (1 Samuel 20).



5) Every place in the Bible where we find a Sabbath day pinpointed to a day of the moon, it falls on one of the above dates. This is too much of a coincidence for it to occur each and every time the Sabbath is pinpointed. Genesis 2, and it’s mention of the Sabbath (when proper exegesis occurs) falls out on the 8th of the moon, as well as the next Sabbath mentioned (Exodus 16), and the list goes on.



I could literally go on and on, and have in a book entitled “PROOF: Weekly Sabbath Days are Determined by the Moon” which is free to those requesting. I am also available to anyone desiring to study the Scriptures and I am also willing to publicly or privately debate the issue with anyone.

I agree with your questions. What did the people in Judea keep and what did the MessiYah keep?

I did a search on the "History of the week" and what I found is no one knows the answer to that question. Here is an article from a webpage I found interesting.



What Is the Origin of the 7-Day Week?

Digging into the history of the 7-day week is a very complicated matter. Authorities have very different opinions about the history of the week, and they frequently present their speculations as if they were indisputable facts. The only thing we seem to know for certain about the origin of the 7-day week is that we know nothing for certain.

The common explanation is that the seven-day week was established as imperial calendar in the late Roman empire and furthered by the Christian church for historical reasons. The British Empire used the seven-day week and spread it worldwide. Today the seven-day week is enforced by global business and media schedules, especially television and banking.

The first pages of the Bible explain how God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. This seventh day became the Jewish day of rest, the sabbath, Saturday.

Extra-biblical locations sometimes mentioned as the birthplace of the 7-day week include: Babylon, Persia, and several others. The week was known in Rome before the advent of Christianity.

There are practical geometrical theories as well. For example, if you wrap a rubber band around 7 soda cans (or any other convenient circular objects). You get a perfect hexagon with the 7th can in the middle. It is the only stable configuration of wrapping more than 3 circular objects. Four, 5, and 6 objects will slip from one configuration to another. Ancients wrapping tent poles, small logs for firewood, or other ciruclar objects might have come upon this number and attach a mystical significance to it.

One viable theory correlates the seven day week to the seven (astrological) "planets" known to the ancients: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. The number seven does not seem an obvious choice to match lunar or solar periods, however. A solar year could be more evenly divided into weeks of 5 days, and the moon phases five-day and six-day weeks make a better short term fit (6 times 5 is 30) to the lunar (synodic) month (of about 29.53 days) than the current week (4 times 7 is 28). The seven-day week may have been chosen because its length approximates one moon phase (one quarter = 29.53 / 4 = 7.3825).



Given the possiblity that the week could have been reckoned by the moon, at least in Yahshua's world. The question I have is, what if Yahshua and those during His time kept the Lunar Sabbath? What would that do to our world? Would we be willing to change to match it? How strange would that be?

No. What I am trying to advocate is truth. It seems odd to me that Yahweh would make every year and every month dependent on the solar and lunar cycles and then leave the weekly Sabbath, one He holds everyone accountable for, to a man made calendar. That just doesn't make sense to me. One thing I have found is if you search hard enough what you can find is that most 'truths' man believes in has something to do with his own traditions. How much more dependent on Yahweh would one have to be if each month and each Sabbath within it was determined directly by Him. I find that enough reason to question man's intentions and see were man would benefit if the current Sabbath system was maintained.

What I am trying to find out is, does anyone here have any information that would lead further into what is true about Yahweh's requirement for the observance of the weekly Sabbath.

Do you advocate the traditional Rabbinical Sabbath or Sabbath that maintains the current worldly calendar?

Shalom,

In that our MessiYah Yahushua kept the weekly seventh day as the Sabbath for His whole life on earth and which was in step during His ministry on earth, and that His apostles and further emmisaries also kept the same days is uncontested or else the Pharisees, Sadducees and others would have found fault with them and made this a major issue during that time itself. The silence in Scriptures and contemporary writings about any dispute about the identification of the weekly Sabbath is a huge indicator that the seventh day has not been in question, but the ways to keep the Sabbath set-apart has been disputed. Like said in my earlier post, unless it can be proven that we do not observe the same weekly calendar from the time of MessiYah Yahushua, then we do not have a problem; but the others who do lay claim to other sabbaths must prove themselves to be in line with Scripture. For we know that our MessiYah Yahushua kept everything perfectly and this we cannot dispute.

Random thought: There is absolutely no reason Yahweh's seven-day week should fit evenly (read: perfectly) into either a solar year or a lunar month. Quite the opposite is true, in fact: in the end, the light of the sun will be replaced by the light of Yahweh Himself. "There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light." (Revelation 22:5) How appropriate, for the sun, a gift from God to men and a faithful servant for the last four or five billion years, has too often been mistaken for God Himself. And worse, the moon, a mere reflector of the sun's light, has been worshipped as well. Yahweh will someday permanently "eclipse" the sun, palpably demonstrating to those of us who chose to revere His light over big bright shiny things in the sky, that He was always the sole source of energy and life in our universe. The seven day week is a symbol of Yahweh's plan of redemption for mankind, from the inception of need (our sin) until the day when every mortal human has made his choice, one way or another. The sun and moon will cease to be. The seven day week, however, may (if God chooses) remain throughout eternity as a reminder of Yahweh's grace.

kp

The point of the information I supplied was not to contradict scripture. The point was just to add more to the fact that looking to the moon for determining the monthly Sabbath cycle could be a possibility and it should be obvious that it was an acceptable practice at that time or before in history. The reference to the nomadic period of the Israelites was the important part.

As far as the scripture you provided, the first obvious thing is that it is stated in my bible that verses 7:53 - 8:11 of John are not reliable. So verse 8:2 may not be an accurate time factor.

Second thing is, how do you know verse 7:37 was talking about the Eighth Day Festival? Maybe it was talking about the last great day of the 7 day festival which is not a Sabbath. The next day would be a Sabbath and then verse 8:2 would be relevant and point to the Sabbath that Yahshua healed the blind man.

I would say that Yahshua was challenging everything about the religious order of the day, including the their version of the Sabbath, that could also include the factor of "when". But, nevertheless, this Sabbath happen to be one everyone recognized, so that was not the issue.

I am not here to teach you anything, I am here to learn. However, within our discussion if we each learn something from the other, then we have truly accomplished something.

As far as my statement about the reliability of verses 7:53 – 8:11, I only make that statement because it is stated in my Bible. Now if I take the Word of God as infallible, then that could also mean the notes and commentaries in any Bible as well. After all God has allowed them to be included in His Word. But if you say that the notes and commentaries are additions, then my question would be, what else was added?

The possibility of a lunar Sabbath has been something that I have been trying to get a handle on for sometime now since it was impressed upon me many years ago. I came to this site and read some of the things here and felt I may learn something here, for a time. And when I came across the Day of Rest discussion I thought it would be a great place to ask some questions in hopes of either learning more about this subject or finding out were it is in error. I am here to see were the lunar Sabbath could be in error.



Maybe that is the point. Our feeble minds are not meant to understand how God works out is time schedules. Do you understand Quantum Physics, whether you understand it or not it still works? Faith in God seems to be the answer to how He works out the timing. So you have an option, Faith in God or Faith in a calendar. Which one do you think is the correct choice?



Lamentations 2 in general and Lamentations 2:6 to be specific.



Sorry, I am lost myself.

However, I am still interested in the question I last asked, how do you know verse 7:37 of John was talking about the Eighth Day Festival?

The information that the last great day is the shemini atzaret is gleaned from Philo and Josephus as well as a scholarly consensus that I will admit is not unanimous.

Also from Leviticus 23:36 we can gather some information:

There is a difference between doing no servile work and no work as would be the case with the sabbath. The eighth day also has a differing offering schedule from the regular sabbath day...if there was any doubt as to whether the 8th day is actually part of the feast which lunar sabbatarians claim is not...but in reality is only the weekly shabbat. If that were the case then why did YHWH not tell the Israelites to stick around another day after Chag Matsah. Chag Matsah (the Feast of Unleavened Bread) ends on the 21st. The next day...the 22nd would be a lunar sabbath...yet there is no command to stick around after the feast....as the Moonies claim is the case with Sukkot.

The Shemini Atzaret is a day connected yet distinctive. As I said before both Philo and Josephus in their writings acknowledge both the connective and seperate nature of the 8th day assembly. As it is the connected to Tabernacles it is the eighth and final day of that celebration. It is also the closing assembly of the year...if we remember that Yom Teruah is not the head of the year. So in actually 2 ways the 8th day is the last great day. It is a high day...a day of special solemnity and importance. Though the 7th day (the Hoshana Rabbah) is special and significant...the eighth day transcends. On this day the greatest offering was given and this final offering was for Israel alone...and therefore had a special place in the collective heart of the nation. On the seventh day the the poured water offerings from the Siloam also reached their conclusion. This would have made Yahushua's offering to the thirsty all the more meaningful and pertinent on the 8th day.


To that end since parties are not satisfied with John 7:53-8:11, we will try to find more evidence of a weekly sabbath independent of the moon.

This seems to me rather good evidence that the children of Yisra'el were travelling on what would be a lunar sabbath.

The manna provision has already been mentioned in previous posts...but I will reiterate.



This certainly does not prove the whole case, being that the sabbath described above in all likelihood was not a month ending Sabbath of the 29th. But the silence of the scriptures on a possible 3 or 4 day provision at the end of the month seems compelling that there never was any such provision...save only the common 2 day provision on the 6th day. There is not one mentioning of such an extended provision.

Moshe is explicit in verse 29:



Another Example of travelling on Lunar Sabbaths?



Now to the Besorim:


Once again there seems to be travel taking place on the regular lunar sabbath day of the 22nd. I will not suppose to be naive and not figure that the Lunar Sabbatarians probably believe that Yahushua's guardians tarried in Yerushalayim until the 22nd was over...but only the feast is mentioned...and in light of the above arguments about Sukkot and their position about the absolute separateness of the eighth day and the fact that the Israelites were ordered to tarry due to the weekly sabbath and YHWH did not order the Israelites to do so for Chag Matsah seems...unlikely. The burden of proof appears to be on them.

Finally the historical evidence still has not been contended with.



The Historical evidence is averagely a couple hundred years before Messiah (reliably speaking) and a couple of hundred years after the Messiah. There is no evidence that a change from a lunar sabbath to a continuous 7 day cycle sbbath took place. It is astounding to think that diaspora communities of Yahudim as diverse as Yemenis to Chinese and Ethiopians to Crimeans were all of one accord as it pertains to the 7th day sabbath when they are so diverse and differing as it pertains to other practices and norms. Communities of Yahudim that existed abroad before the diaspora in places like Greece, Arabia, Egypt, and even as far away as India were practicing the independent and continuous 7 day Shabbat in accord with latter diaspora communities...even before the confusion of the expulsion at the hands of the Romans.

As for me the scriptual evidence combined with the historical evidence does it for me. The fact that I find YHWH to be a logical, loving Elohim that does not want to burden his creation with undue confusion and burden them with an ever changing rhythm that has no consistency seals the Lunar sabbath's fate for me. The motives of the lunar sabbatarians are troubling to me...it seems to be a dejudaizing in the opposite direction to that of the church... the lunar sabbath seems to be popular in an element that often wishes to supplant the role of Israel...It's a sort of Israel (which are really just counterfeit Kazaars anyway) can do no right sentiment....I am sorry if that offends but that is what I have observed. I am sure all these arguments can be dismissed and some sort of logic can be applied that would make them all for naught. I am certain Lunar Sabbatarians have answers for all of this...and I even already know some of the arguments they would bring. In the end the arguments offered seem to me to be highly speculative and of vested interpretation. In my own mind I have peace...I have faith in the Seventh Day Shabbat. As for anyone else that still may be seeking or unsure or thinks that I am wrong, suspect, sinister or grabbing at straws...YHWH bless you on your search for truth.

YHWH Imakhem

Shalom