Joined: 10/23/2007(UTC) Posts: 2,616 Location: Texas Thanks: 5 times Was thanked: 216 time(s) in 149 post(s)
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Steve wrote:DABAR b)command, precept, law, regulation (by words), also taken collectively, e. g. of God 2Sam 12, 9, of a king e)decree, plan, proposal 2Sam
So we can see above that the word (dabar) of God is his command, precept, law, regulation, decree, plan, or proposal. The word DABAR is what John would have written down and it would have been in a Hebrew sense not in a Greek Hellenized since. In every day speech when we talk about the word of YHWH we mean his word/instructions. John was not some Hellenized Greek philosopher. He was a Hebrew man with Hebrew sensabilities. Which is where the word LOGOS has a problem. Okay I am not going to address anything else you wrote here right now, but this one is something that is just blatantly wrong. Dabar does not mean command, precept, law or regulation. I don’t know where you got that from at all. Dictionary of Biblical Languages wrote: 1821 דָּבָר (dā•ḇār): n.masc.; ≡ Str 1697; TWOT 399a—1. LN 33.69–33.108 statement, what is said, word, saying, message, communication, i.e., that which has been stated or said (Nu 23:5), note: for MT text in Ps 119:37, see 2006; 2. LN 33.69–33.108 speaking, i.e., the act. of speaking (Da 10:9); 3. LN 33.69–33.108 account, treatise, record, i.e., a formally rendering of an event in a systematic manner (2Sa 11:8); 4. LN 13.104–13.163 happening, event, matter, thing, something, anything, i.e., an event which one may refer (Nu 31:16); 5. LN 33.387–33.403 unit: דָּבָר בֶּלַע (dā•ḇār bě•lǎʿ)2 harmful word, i.e., evil destructive speech, with a focus on the destructiveness of the speech (Ps 52:6[EB 4]+); 6. LN 33.251–33.255 unit: דָּבָר בֶּלַע (dā•ḇār bě•lǎʿ)2 lies, i.e., untrue words that confuse (Ps 52:6[EB 4]+); 7. LN 39.1–39.12 unit: מִי בַּעַל דָּבָר (mî bǎ•ʿǎl dā•ḇār) disputer, formally, whoever is master of the word, i.e., one in a hostile position to another (Ex 24:14+), note: in context, a civil dispute; 8. LN 33.218–33.223 unit: דָּבָר נִחֻמִים (dā•ḇār ni•ḥǔ•mîm) word of comfort, i.e., words spoken with certainty of declaration (Zec 1:13+); 9. LN 33.69–33.108 unit: דָּבָר בְּ־ נַחַת (dā•ḇār b- nǎ•ḥǎṯ)2 normal speech, formally, words of quietness, i.e., what is normally spoken in a normal tone (Ecc 9:17+); 10. LN 33.365–33.367 unit: דָּבָר נָעִים (dā•ḇār nā•ʿîm)1 compliments, formally, pleasant words, i.e., what is spoken as praise or flattery (Pr 23:8); 11. LN 56.4–56.11 unit: שִׂים (śîm) … עֲלִילָה דָּבָר (ʿǎlî•lā(h) dā•ḇār) make a charge, formally, place (to someone) action of words, i.e., make a legal accusation against someone, which if unbased, becomes slander (Dt 22:14, 17+), note: some sources see “slander” or “capriciousness” as a central focus of the meaning; 12. LN 33.387–33.403 unit: דָּבָר עֶצֶב (dā•ḇār ʿě•ṣěḇ)2 harsh words, formally, word of toil, i.e., communication through speech which is critical, and unduly cruel or blunt apparently for the purpose of causing mental anguish (Pr 15:1+); 13. LN 33.26–33.34 unit: דָּבָר רוּחַ (dā•ḇār rûaḥ) long-winded speech, formally, words of mere breath, i.e., make a formal argumentation which goes on for a long time, and so implied to be disdained by the hearer (Job 16:3+); 14. LN 56.2–56.3 unit: דָּבָר רִיבָה (dā•ḇār rî•ḇā(h)) legal case, lawsuit, formally, word of dispute, i.e., a legal action taken in court as a contest between two parties for justice (Dt 17:8+); 15. LN 33.69–33.108 unit: דָּבָר שָׂפָה (dā•ḇār śā•p̄ā(h)) empty words, mere talk, i.e., speech that cannot be backed by the actions it claims (2Ki 18:20; Pr 14:23; Isa 36:5+); 16. LN 67.163–67.200 unit: דָּבָר שָׁנָה בְּ־ שָׁנָה (dā•ḇār šā•nā(h) b- šā•nā(h))2 year after year (1Ki 10:25); note: further study may yield more domains BDB wrote: דָּבָר S1697 TWOT399a GK18211439 n.m. speech, word—Gn 18:14 + 446 times; cstr. דְּבַר Gn 12:17 + 361 times; sf. דְּבָרִי Nu 11:23 + (sfs. 66 times); sg. in all 875 times; pl. דְּבָרִים Ex 4:10 + 182 times; cstr. דִּבְרֵי Gn 24:30 + 253 times; sf. דְּבָרָיו Gn 37:8 (sfs. 127 times); pl. in all 564 times;—I. sg. speech, discourse, saying, word, as the sum of that which is spoken GHCLOT wrote: דָּבָר m.—(1) [const. דְּבַר; suff. דְּבָרִי; pl. דְּבָרִים, const. דִּבְרֵי], word, λόγος, Gen. 44:18, etc. Often in pl. TWOT wrote: Some lexicographers distinguish two roots for the Hebrew dbr: I. “to be behind, to turn back” related to Arabic dub [u]r with the same meaning and Akkadian dabāru “to push back.” Derivatives of this root include dĕbîr “back chamber,” dōber “(remote place) pasture,” dōberôt “raft (dragged behind the ship],” and midbār “steppe.” II. “word,” mostly found in the noun dābār “word, thing” and the verb in Piel “to speak, address.” Etymologically related to dbr II are dibrâ “thing,” and dibbēr a rare nominal form of the verb, and midbār “mouth” with instrumental mem. Although Seeligman (VT, 14:80) derives dabberet “word” from root I, it appears more plausible to see it as a derivative of root II. While BDB and GB do not differentiate dbr as occurring as a verb in two different roots, KB assigns dbr to root I in the Piel for Job 19:18; II Chr 22:10 and in Hiphil for Ps 18:47 [H 48] and 47:3 [H 4]. We will limit our discussion of the verb to the putative root II. No convincing etymology for dbr has been offered to this time. Akkadian possesses the vocable dabābu—noun and verb—with meanings strikingly similar to those of Hebrew. As a substantive it means “speech,” or “legal matter” and as a verb “to speak” (CAD. D.2–14). But Hebrew also has a root dbb attested in the noun dibbâ “whispering, slander.” It is questionable whether the similarity between Akkadian dbb and Hebrew dbr is due to chance or to a true etymological connection. The root occurs in the Lachish ostraca and in the Siloam Tunnel Inscription. Outside of Hebrew it occurs in Phoenician-Punic with the same meaning as Hebrew and in Biblical Aramaic in a nominal dibrâ “matter.” dābar is probably a denominate verb from dābār, as it is used almost exclusively in the Piel, Pual, Hithpael, and Qal participle. Ugaritic evidence shows no use of dābar “to speak” (nor of ʾāmar “to say”), but does have instance of the use of midbar II. wilderness. In any language the words which represent the basic verb for speaking and the noun for “word” cannot but be of supreme importance. The verb dābar and the noun dābār have these important spots in the Hebrew Bible. Procksch in TWNT states that the noun is the basic form and the verb stems from it. These two words occur more than 2500 times in the OT, the noun more than 1400 times and the verb more than 1100. The source of the words is unclear though they are common in Semitic languages. Some words cover much territory, spreading into many areas of thought and in the process compounding problems for communicators—especially for those who try to translate ideas into other languages. In the KJV dābar is translated by about thirty different words and dābār by more than eighty. Some of these are synonyms but many are not. All, however, have some sense of thought processes, of communication, or of subjects or means of communication. The noun dābār stretches all the way from anything that can be covered by the word thing or matter to the most sublime and dynamic notion of the word of God. Many synonyms are found in Ps l 19 where the message from God is eulogized. Doubtless the most important synonyms are ʾāmar “to say” and the masculine and feminine ʾēmer and ʾimrâ which are almost always translated “word.” In his discussion on synonyms for the word of God, Girdlestone mentions ʾāmar “to say,” millâ “word,” nāʾam “utter,” peh “mouth,” tôrâ “law,” dāt “edict,” ḥōq “statute,” ṣāwâ “command,” piqqûdîm “charge,” ʾōraḥ “way,” derek; “path,” mišpaṭ “judgment,” and ʾôd “testimony.” In this list of synonyms, the first four refer to the ordinary use of the root dābār. The word ʾāmar “to say” is very like dābar but is usually followed by the thing said. millâ “word” was long called a late Aramaizing synonym, but now is recognized as simply a poetic and less common expression for WORD. nāʾam is mostly restricted to the nominal form nĕʾūm meaning a prophetic oracle. The word peh “mouth” is a mere figurative use of the organ of speech for the speech. The rest of the words in Girdlestone’s list, edict, statute, command, etc. are variant expressions for the authoritative word indicated by dābār (or ʾōmer or imrâ) in some contexts. [Although ʾmr “to say” is the closest synonym to dbr, its basic meaning stands out clearly against dbr (Piel). In the case of ʾmr the focus is on the content of what is spoken, but in the case of dbr primary attention is given to the activity of speaking, the producing of words and clauses. While ʾmr cannot be used absolutely (without giving the content of what is said), dibber can be so used (cf. Gen 24:14; Job 1:16; 16:4, 6). Moreover, while ʾmr can have a diversity of subjects by personification (land, animals, trees, night, fire, works, etc.), dbr almost always has personal subjects or designations of their organs of speech (mouth, lips, tongue, etc.). They are also distinguished with respect to the one addressed. While in the case of ʾmr it is sufficient to use the weaker preposition lĕ, dbr normally demands the stronger preposition ʾel (about ten times more frequently than lĕ). These differences, however, do not detract from the importance of what is said as the object of dbr which includes most matters pertaining to moral and ideal values. As in some other verbs used mainly in the Piel, the Qal occurrences are almost exclusively in the active participle and designate mostly one who speaks something as a commandment or on account of an inner compulsion. Thus it is used with: truth (Ps 15:2), lies/falsehood (Jer 40:16; Ps 5:6 [H 7]; 58:3 [H 4]; 63:11 [H 12]; 101:7), right (Isa 33:15; 45:19; Prov 16:13), well-being (Est 10:3), folly (Isa 9:17 [H 16]), insolence (Ps 31:18 [H 19]). It is also used of angels who bear God’s message (Gen 16:13; Zech 1:9,13,19 [H 2:2], etc.) and of speech of abiding relevance (Num 27:7; 36:5). B.K.W.) In the KJV some of the less common translations of the dābar include: “answered” (II Chr 10:14) as parallel to ʾānâ “answer” in v. 13 (where Rehoboam answers his critics); “uses entreaties” (Prov 18:23); “give sentence” or “give judgment” in Jer 4:12 and 39:5 (with mišpāṭîm); “publish” (Est 1:22) and “be spoken for” (Song 8:8). The KJV has “subdues” in Ps 18:47 where some such notion is necessary to parallel “avenge” in the first part of the sentence. This psalm occurs also in II Sam 22 and there (v. 48) the Hebrew word for “bring down” is used in the place of dābar. This corroborates the rare meaning of “subdue” for dābar in Ps 18:47 and Ps 47:3. Modern translations also give this meaning in these passages. A most important declaration, which is reiterated over and over again (about 400 times), in the OT use of dābar, is that God “spoke.” The Pentateuch is loaded with such statements as “The LORD said,” “The LORD promised” and “The LORD commanded,” all translations of dābar. God’s spokesmen are often challenged as Moses was challenged by Miriam and Aaron saying, “Hath the lord indeed spoken only by Moses?” (Num 12:2). But the lord always supports his word and his spokesman. דָּבָר (dābār). Word, speaking, speech, thing, anything, everything (with kōl), nothing (with negatives), commandment, matter, act, event, history, account, business, cause, reason, and in construction with prepositions: on account of, because that. This noun is translated in eighty-five different ways in the KJV! This is due to the necessity of rendering such a fertile word by the sense it has in varying contexts. As “word” dābār basically means what God said or says. The decalogue, “the ten words” (Ex 34:28; Deut 4:13; 10:4), are ten declarations or statements, as in Deut 10:4, the ten words (dĕbārîm) which the Lord spoke (dibbēr). The ten words are commandments because of the syntactical form of their utterance. The ten words are what God said; they are ten commandments because of how God said them. The dābār is sometimes what is done and sometimes a report of what is done. So, often in Chr, one reads of the acts (dibrê) of a king which are written in a certain book (dibrê). “Now the acts of David the king … are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and, in the book of Gad the seer.” In the KJV of II Chr 33:18 acts, words, spake and book are all some form of dābar / dābār. And in the next verse, sayings is added to this list! The Hebrew name for Chronicles is “the book of the words (acts) of the times” (sēper dibrê hayyāmîm). Here “words (acts) of the times” is equal to “history”—“annals.” The revelatory work of God is often expressed by “the word of the Lord came” to or upon a person (I Chr 17:3 and often in the prophets). Jehoshaphat says of Elisha that “the word of the Lord is with him” (II Kgs 3:12). When prophecy was stilled as in Samuel’s childhood, “The Word of the LORD was precious” (KJV; ASV “rare”). But Moses says that Israel has the word very near, because he refers to the book of the law which had recently been given to them, as the immediately preceding context shows. In II Sam 16:23 the counsel of Ahithophel is said to be like the counsel of an oracle (KJV, RSV). Here dābār is “oracle,” though massāʿ, KJV “burden,” is often used for oracle in modern translations. [Gerleman notes that the singular construct chain dĕbar YW “the word of the LORD occurs 242 times and almost always (225 times) the expression appears as a technical form for the prophetic revelation (THAT, I. p.439). He also notes that the plural construct chain dibrê YW ”the words of the LORD occurs seventeen times and much more frequently than the singular construction after verbs of speaking ngd [Hiphil] (Ex 4:28); spr [Piel] “to recount” (Ex 24:3); dbr [piel] “to tell” (Num 11:24; Jer 43:1; Ezk 11:25); ʾmr “to say” (I Sam 8:10), qrʾ “to cry out” (Jer 36:6, 8; THAT, I:439). In seven passages the dĕbar YW has a juristic character (Num 15:31; Deut 5:5; I Chr 15:15; II Chr 30:12; 34:21; 35:6). B.K.W.] Certain characteristics of the word of the Lord are enunciated in Ps. Among them are: “The word of the Lord is right” (33:4), “settled in heaven” (119:89), “a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path” (119:105) and “true” (119:160). The efficaciousness of the word of the Lord is often cited by certain phrases like “according to the word of the Lord” (I Kgs 13:26), or “I will perform my word” (I Kgs 6:12). The chronicler says that the Lord stirred up Cyrus “that the word of the lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished” (36:22). Through Isaiah the LORD says that his word will be like the rain and the snow making the land productive. “It shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it” (Isa 55:11). Jeremiah also promises that the Lord’s Spirit and word shall never depart from his people and is “like a fire” and “a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces” (Jer 23:29). (In addition, the word of the Lord is personified in such passages as: “The LORD sends his message against Jacob, and it falls on Israel” (Isa 9:8 [H 7]); “He sent his word and healed them” (Ps 107:20); “He sends his command to the earth” (Ps 147:15). Admittedly, because of the figure it appears as if the word of God had a divine existence apart from God, but Gerleman rightly calls into question the almost universal interpretation that sees the word in these passages as a Hypostasis, a kind of mythologizing. Gerleman suggests that this usage is nothing more than the normal tendency to enliven and personify abstractions. Thus human emotions and attributes are also treated as having an independent existence; wickedness, perversity, anxiety, hope, anger, goodness and truth (Ps 85:11f.; 107:42; Job 5:16; 11:14; 19:10) (THAT, I. p. 442). B.K.W.]
Simply put Dabar means words or in its plural form statements. Translators choose to render it as command when they extrapolate from the context that the words are being given authoritatively, which is sometimes correct but often not. But that is not what the word means. The word dabar means word. Okay I said I wasn't going to, but I have to address more of what you said. Steve wrote:You cannot begin to stand for or against Paul while not fully understanding the Torah, Prophets and Writings. They, not the NT, are the bedrock of YHWH's plan. It is to them we turn. If one blatantly looks at Paul's writings or anything that backs them up in other NT writings, we all of sudden only have only about 37% of it left. That would be Paul's letters, Luke, Acts, 1st & 2nd Peter, and Hebrews. That is 63% gone. I completely agree with you here. It is based on understanding the Torah, Prophets and Writings that I condemn Paul. I don't spend much time at all in the Greek text I love Hebrew and I love Yahowah's Torah. That said based on what you posted above I don't think you understand the Torah. If you think Dabar are command and that the Torah is law then you have been mislead. Yahowah's Torah is teaching and instruction, not laws. It is His Word, not His commands. Steve wrote:Again I make the point that the NT is not scripture. It has been doctored by people and groups alike to bend it's readers to the pagan Babylonian religious system perpetrated by the Roman Catholic church and it's protestant (protesting catholics) daughters. But it's Hebraic style and message of Torah observance (if one's mind hasn't become blinded) is there to see. Again couldn't agree more. The Greek text is at best history. And yes Torah observance is there, just not in Paul's letters. And I don't base this on translators or religious interpretation, but on a plain reading of what the man wrote. Please finish Questioning Paul, it uses Paul's words and the Torah to prove that Paul was wrong. While I don't think you completely understand the Torah you do have the right mindset, that the Torah is what matters, and with that mindset I believe the evidence presented will convince you, but please finish it before you attempt to defend Paul here anymore. |