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Offline catherder  
#1 Posted : Saturday, December 8, 2012 9:30:03 AM(UTC)
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These two witness are going to do some cool things, does anyone have any insight on these two dude’s?

http://www.bing.com/vide...BCDD3254166&first=21
Offline tagim  
#2 Posted : Saturday, December 8, 2012 7:03:16 PM(UTC)
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Catherder, your post is stimulating. To be alive during and living in the same city as to "two witnesses" would be a kick. just sit back and think how your mind will be spinning. can't wait.
Offline FredSnell  
#3 Posted : Sunday, December 9, 2012 2:12:10 AM(UTC)
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If I was forced to make a wager, I would bet on Moshe b/c of his never entering the promised land and walking away, and his ability to bring plagues, and 2nd guess, ElYah, because the name itself will tell much to many...who knows though?
Offline needhelp  
#4 Posted : Monday, December 10, 2012 1:29:43 AM(UTC)
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Tagim said : "can't wait"

I haven't looked, but, don't the two witnesses come after
the harvest?
Offline James  
#5 Posted : Monday, December 10, 2012 2:56:34 AM(UTC)
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If it isn't going to be two new people and it is someone from Scripture, my vote would be Dowd. No one better explained the Towrah than him. But that is not based on having studied the text, just who I would choose if I were Yah.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline pilgrimhere  
#6 Posted : Monday, December 10, 2012 3:57:51 AM(UTC)
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KP's speculation of Enoch and Elijah seems to fit nicely. They are the only two men who walked in such a manner that they were received without experiencing death ... yet (?)
Offline James  
#7 Posted : Monday, December 10, 2012 7:35:00 AM(UTC)
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pilgrimhere wrote:
KP's speculation of Enoch and Elijah seems to fit nicely. They are the only two men who walked in such a manner that they were received without experiencing death ... yet (?)


That is what a lot of people speculate, and there is a good argument for it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline catherder  
#8 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2012 9:00:55 AM(UTC)
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James wrote:
That is what a lot of people speculate, and there is a good argument for it.


Yeshua is the first fruit from among the dead, everyone is dead right now. Seems these two men will be two people we have not heard of? I am still trying to figure out what their gospel is, it has to be to the Israelite's and to those who have not heard Yahweh's word? The body of the messiah will have been lifted of the earth before these two dudes show up.
Offline FredSnell  
#9 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:51:29 AM(UTC)
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^
Catherdar, consider reading ITG and after that, find the time to read YY. If I were you personally, I wouldn't worry about, "what their gospel is," and think on His Name instead, because I don't think you have considered it yet?...am i right, am i right?..)) Really, try it and you might then learn His Name and use the proper and good Name of Yahowah your creator.
Offline catherder  
#10 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:02:17 AM(UTC)
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encounterHim wrote:
^
Catherdar, consider reading ITG and after that, find the time to read YY. If I were you personally, I wouldn't worry about, "what their gospel is," and think on His Name instead, because I don't think you have considered it yet?...am i right, am i right?..)) Really, try it and you might then learn His Name and use the proper and good Name of Yahowah your creator.


What a witness this is to the world, Yeshua’s blood did fall on the ark!

http://www.bing.com/vide...enant+found+by+ron+wyatt
Offline cgb2  
#11 Posted : Monday, December 17, 2012 12:25:50 PM(UTC)
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^ Not too often you see one quote something they don't answer and then change the subject....just so no one misses it Confused
Offline pilgrimhere  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:36:43 AM(UTC)
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catherder wrote:
Yeshua is the first fruit from among the dead, everyone is dead right now.


Enoch and Elijah clearly did not experience death prior to their departure from earth. The two witnesses will experience death at the very end. For that matter, regarding "from among the dead", Adam and Chawah experienced death prior to being ejected from Yahowah's garden. The current state of Enoch and Elijah is beyond my comprehension. But speculating that they may play a role in witnessing what they are currently privy to and enrage the powers that be while evading death by supernatural means ... and shutting the skies of rain ... and incinerating attackers (?) does make sense.
Offline needhelp  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:06:04 AM(UTC)
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Why do the two witnesses have to be ancient prophets?
Yahowsha was born of his time and grew up then. So did
Abraham, Moseh, Eliyah and all of the rest of the Scriptual
people. The antichrist is growing up as we read/write this.
Eliyah and Moseh,John,Enoch or whomever would suggest
reincarnation or just plain magic. I can't find anything
that says they were just "beamed down". Doesn't Yahowah
teach against reincarnation and magic?
Just a thought
Offline cgb2  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:22:39 AM(UTC)
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I wonder if this passage is reliable and has some clues:
Mat 17:1 And after six days יהושע took Kĕpha, and Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yoḥanan his brother, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves,
Mat 17:2 and He was transformed before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And see, Mosheh and Ěliyahu appeared to them, talking with Him.
Mat 17:4 And Kĕpha answering, said to יהושע, “Master, it is good for us to be here. If You wish, let us make here three booths: one for You, one for Mosheh, and one for Ěliyahu.”.
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, see, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And see, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I did delight. Hear Him!”
Mat 17:6 And when the taught ones heard, they fell on their faces and were much afraid.
Mat 17:7 But יהושע came near and touched them and said, “Rise, and do not be afraid.”
Mat 17:8 And having lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but יהושע only.
Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, יהושע commanded them, saying, “Do not mention the vision to anyone until the Son of Aḏam is raised from the dead.”
Mat 17:10 And His taught ones asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Ěliyahu has to come first?”
Mat 17:11 And יהושע answering, said to them, “Ěliyahu is indeed coming first, and shall restore all matters.
Mat 17:12 “But I say to you that Ěliyahu has already come, and they did not recognise him but did to him whatever they wished. In this way the Son of Aḏam is also about to suffer by them.”
Mat 17:13 Then the taught ones understood that He had spoken to them about Yoḥanan the Immerser.


I even wonder if "witnesses" are metaphors since in the torah "witness" is often used to describe the tablets and written torah, and housed in ark and tent of witness and such.
Offline needhelp  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 3:41:15 AM(UTC)
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Food for thought cgb2. Metaphors.I thought about it but couldn't
figure it out. You gave me an idea.
2 Wittnesses--2 Tablets
It is said that the Ark of the Covenant will be found/revealed
in the last days. Killing them could be throwing them down in
the middle of the street and breaking them. All seeing and
rejoicing could be TV/ internet. God's law is dead, long live
theirs. Rain= water= life.Yahowah gives or witholds life.
I'll have to study the possibilities this brings. Thankx
Offline Sarah  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 5:39:00 AM(UTC)
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More food for thought:

The Yahudim/Sanhedrin had the choice to either accept or reject the Ma'aseYah 2000 years ago. The possibility of their accepting their Ma'aseYah, had to exist, yes? In the event that they accepted Him, then, wouldn't Yahucanon the Immerser have actually been 'EliYah'?
Offline Mike  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:45:35 AM(UTC)
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Sarah (one who contends and perseveres with),

Yahucanon the Immerser was not 'EliYah according to the eyewitness account:

Joh 1:19 Now this was the witness of Yoḥanan when the Yehuḏim sent from Yerushalayim priests and Lĕwites to ask him, “Who are you?”
Joh 1:20 And he confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Messiah.”
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, “What then, are you Ěliyahu?” So he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”
Joh 1:22 Therefore they said to him, “Who are you, so that we give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
Joh 1:23 He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of יהוה,’ as the prophet Yeshayahu said.”
Joh 1:24 And those sent were of the Pharisees,
Joh 1:25 and they asked him, saying, “Why then do you immerse if you are not the Messiah, nor Ěliyahu, nor the Prophet?”
Joh 1:26 Yoḥanan answered them, saying, “I immerse in water, but in your midst stands One whom you do not know,
Joh 1:27 the One coming after me, who has become before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loosen.”
Joh 1:28 This took place in Bĕyth Anyah beyond the Yardĕn, where Yoḥanan was immersing.

Shalom
Offline Steve in PA  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:24:08 AM(UTC)
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What does it say in the Towrah/ Tanakh about the two witnesses...???

There is stuff in "Revelations" that is only in Revelations... I'm thinking some dogma from Christianity and the "NT" is carried over by many just changing the names and terms... myself included.
Offline FredSnell  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:54:30 PM(UTC)
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Aharon and Mosheh?...They are the two witnesses for Israel in the Towrah.

"There is stuff in "Revelations" that is only in Revelations... I'm thinking some dogma from Christianity and the "NT" is carried over by many just changing the names and terms... myself included."...I think that's from, "the more we thought we knew, the more we find out we didn't."
Offline Steve in PA  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:43:51 PM(UTC)
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Right... my point being... If we cannot find in the Towrah/ Tanakh stuff that is presented in Revelation... is what we have in the Greek valid ...?

"The Mark of the Beast" oooohhhhh... "the anti-christ" oooooohhhhhh.... "The Ministry of the Two Witnesses" oooooohhhhhhh...

I'm thinking John was trippin or someone took liberty with and published something he did not write.

If Yah inspired Dowd to write what he did in Psalm 19:7... stating the Towrah to be complete lacking nothing... and Yahowsha' truly stated that He did not come to add nor take away from the Towrah...
Why would Yah give new prophetic information from John in Rev. ...???
Offline needhelp  
#21 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:52:01 AM(UTC)
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Eh steve wrote:
"If Yah inspired Dowd to write what he did in Psalm 19:7... stating the Towrah to be complete lacking nothing... and Yahowsha' truly stated that He did not come to add nor take away from the Towrah...
Why would Yah give new prophetic information from John in Rev. ...??? "

Very good point.
Offline dajstill  
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:56:47 AM(UTC)
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eh steve wrote:
Right... my point being... If we cannot find in the Towrah/ Tanakh stuff that is presented in Revelation... is what we have in the Greek valid ...?

"The Mark of the Beast" oooohhhhh... "the anti-christ" oooooohhhhhh.... "The Ministry of the Two Witnesses" oooooohhhhhhh...

I'm thinking John was trippin or someone took liberty with and published something he did not write.

If Yah inspired Dowd to write what he did in Psalm 19:7... stating the Towrah to be complete lacking nothing... and Yahowsha' truly stated that He did not come to add nor take away from the Towrah...
Why would Yah give new prophetic information from John in Rev. ...???


Are the prophets a part of the "Torah"? Is Isaiah a part of the "Torah"? Is Malachi? I don't think this to be a valid point because most of the prophetic books are not a part of the Torah. But, that is just my opinion.
Offline needhelp  
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:23:15 AM(UTC)
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Some people consider the "OT" to be the Torah. We are
pretty sure the prophets are inspired. The Psalms are'nt
in the "Torah" either. Torah being the first 5, (Joshua 6?)
books.


Psalm 19:7,8
Yahowah’s ( – Yahowah’s) Towrah (Towrah – Source of Teaching and
Instruction and the Place from which Direction and Guidance Flow) is wholly
complete and entirely perfect (tamym – without defect, lacking nothing, totally
correct, sound, genuine, right, helpful, healing, beneficial, and true), returning, restoring, and transforming (suwb – turning around, bringing back, changing,
and renewing) the soul (nepesh – our consciousness). Yahowah’s ( –
Yahowah’s) testimony (‘eduwth – witness) is trustworthy and reliable (‘aman –
is instructive, informative, verifiable, confirming, supportive, and establishing),
making understanding and obtaining wisdom (hakam – making education,
learning, and enlightenment to the point of comprehension) simple for the open-
minded (pethy – easy for those who are receptive)
8 Yahowah’s ( ) directions (piquwdym – instructions and prescriptions,
precepts and guidance; from paqad – that which we should pay especially close
attention to, care about, look at, and examine so that we respond appropriately)
are right (yashar – are straight (and thus neither crooked or circuitous) and
upright (and thus are disassociated from bowing down), they are approved,
esteemed, correct, proper, and pleasing), causing the heart to rejoice (leb samah
– facilitating an attitude of elation). Yahowah’s ( ) terms and conditions
(mitswah – His authorized instructions regarding the codicils of His covenant
contract) are morally pure and are purifying (bar – paving the way to
inheritance, to enlightenment, and to understanding) shining a light toward
understanding (‘owr ‘ayn – illuminating the proper perspective, shedding a
brilliant light on the path to enlightenment).


What about Psalm119 and 22

Am genuinely interested in yours and other
opinions.

Offline Steve in PA  
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:32:29 AM(UTC)
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I did say Torah/ Tanakh ... and yes His prophets are a continuation of the Towrah... as His towrah(teaching and guidance in general... not specifically just the first books).
"Revelations" seems to fit the pattern yet all we have is Greek and just like the whole of the "NT" it did not have the same type of care and maintenance that the Tanakh had/has.
There are conflicts between what is written there verses what you'll find in the Tanakh.
Honestly, I am only just now/recently seriously looking into this issue... my initial gut feeling and nesamah tell me I'm onto something. I think many, myself included have carried over some end-time garbage from Christianity.
One of those things I believe is we've created this satan/serpent boogie-man who causes all this havoc wanting to sit on the highest throne, being worshiped and adored by all. Sounds to me just like the old "king of the hill" game.
Flesh and man in general are "satan-ial" to Yah. We are capable of the most disgusting vile things all in pursuit of our wants and desires. This mythical boogie-man is a cop-out bullshit excuse. "The devil made me do it"... "Satan is causing all this strife and division"... "Satan this... and Satan that... blah, blah, blah".
There very well may be some adversarial melak/saba' who fell out with Yah because of pride and whatever... regardless "it" is no rival to Yah and "it" is subject to and under the control of Yah.
Offline cgb2  
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:55:24 AM(UTC)
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eh steve wrote:

.....
Honestly, I am only just now/recently seriously looking into this issue... my initial gut feeling and nesamah tell me I'm onto something. I think many, myself included have carried over some end-time garbage from Christianity.
......


Me too.

Why is it that every passage I've read (even checking xtian websites citing verses) trying to fit the nation state of Isreal, contain "day of Yahowah", "living in peace in unwalled villages" and other indicators about his return and the mellenial shabat immediately around them? I do find some that indicate some in the land but it isn't good, and also Yerusalem a cup of trembling and such. Is the purpose of Isreal NWO, it sure does have ties to Rothchilds and thier puppets who hold world power.

Is Daniel 9:27 the only place we get 7 or 3.5 years terrible tribulation? I think it goes back to discussing Messiah like rest of chapter: like affirmed & strenghtened the covenant with many for 3.5 years then his taught ones 3.5 years after until Paul came along and weakened it. I even consider if trumpets, reconcilliations, start of milliniem all occur in same year. If the xtian escatology of 3.5 years terrible devastation, how does that logically fit with eating, drinking, given in marriage and sudden destruction comes?

While I think book Future History 2033 CE +1/-3 years is plausible, much of the rest is difficult to listen/read since outdated and full of Pauline doctrine, and possibly errant xtian escatology. I know Yada hopes to revisit endtimes writing soon, and wonder with a fresh eye if that too will be major revisions.
Offline dajstill  
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:50:33 AM(UTC)
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eh steve wrote:
I did say Torah/ Tanakh ... and yes His prophets are a continuation of the Towrah... as His towrah(teaching and guidance in general... not specifically just the first books).
"Revelations" seems to fit the pattern yet all we have is Greek and just like the whole of the "NT" it did not have the same type of care and maintenance that the Tanakh had/has.
There are conflicts between what is written there verses what you'll find in the Tanakh.
Honestly, I am only just now/recently seriously looking into this issue... my initial gut feeling and nesamah tell me I'm onto something. I think many, myself included have carried over some end-time garbage from Christianity.
One of those things I believe is we've created this satan/serpent boogie-man who causes all this havoc wanting to sit on the highest throne, being worshiped and adored by all. Sounds to me just like the old "king of the hill" game.
Flesh and man in general are "satan-ial" to Yah. We are capable of the most disgusting vile things all in pursuit of our wants and desires. This mythical boogie-man is a cop-out bullshit excuse. "The devil made me do it"... "Satan is causing all this strife and division"... "Satan this... and Satan that... blah, blah, blah".
There very well may be some adversarial melak/saba' who fell out with Yah because of pride and whatever... regardless "it" is no rival to Yah and "it" is subject to and under the control of Yah.


I thought Revelation had very little to do with the Christian concept of "the devil". The "beast", the "whore" - I thought them to be the part of Babylon we were to walk away from (government and religion). Paul was the one who talked about demon possession and such. Fact, I had posted last month about what power "satan" had outside of confusion the Word of Yahowah as I don't think he has any. But, the first person to 'confuse" the word of Yahowah was Chawah (don't even touch the tree) where as the serpent actually questioned it and called Yahowah a liar.

I don't think all of Revelations is uncorrupted, there are lots of parts that strike me as too odd to be taken seriously. I believe a type of "one world system" is possible because we have been pretty close to having it in the past. In fact, just look at the Olympics and we can see you can pretty much get the whole world doing one thing at the same time. What makes Revelation plausible to me is that it isn't "satan" led, it is man led. Most people won't know they are in it because it won't seem bad. Kind of like when I try to explain the pagan aspects of Christmas and people look at me like I am insane and declare nothing so good could possibly be "bad".

When it comes to the two witnesses, I don't know where I stand on that concept. It isn't without reason that someone can be raised from the dead, it happened in the Tanak (wasn't it in 1 Kings with Elijah and the widows son?). In the internet age, it isn't hard for me to fathom 2 folks being able to speak to the entire world and the entire world hear it and reject/accept their testimony. I guess my thoughts are in this day and age, much of revelation is "plausible" only because of the technical advances that have been made (the entire world being able to see something in real time).

I am not rejecting your questioning, I do it myself. I vacillate on many things quite a bit (sometimes I even wonder if Yahowsha' already returned years before I found Yahowah's name and His truth). I guess what I am saying is that however crazy, goofy, and weird Revelation sounds, it is all relatively plausible today simply because the world is so connected with each other. And honestly for me, Revelation isn't more scary that Isaiah. In fact, it would actually be better because things seem to be quicker in Revelation - one big bomb that wipes out most of the population rather than the nation by nation fighting in Isaiah. I would take the "big flash" over years and years of war in a heartbeat. And yes, I am hoping Revelation is true because I am not sure I see in rescue of Yahowah's family in Isaiah. Someone can correct me if I am wrong in that.
Offline catherder  
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:00:54 PM(UTC)
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needhelp wrote:
Food for thought cgb2. Metaphors.I thought about it but couldn't
figure it out. You gave me an idea.
2 Wittnesses--2 Tablets
It is said that the Ark of the Covenant will be found/revealed
in the last days. Killing them could be throwing them down in
the middle of the street and breaking them. All seeing and
rejoicing could be TV/ internet. God's law is dead, long live
theirs. Rain= water= life.Yahowah gives or witholds life.
I'll have to study the possibilities this brings. Thankx


I learned that the two witnesses should be looked at like this, "two witnesses of mine." These two dudes are going to be clothed in black sack cloth and telling people to repent. A lot of people during this time do not believe that the messiah has all ready come, that ark being revealed with the messiah's blood on it would wake up a lot Israelites. I forget what side of the ark the high priest put the blood of goat during the passover, but on the other side there is a little blood from the messiah. This will be mind binding to Israelites to see this.

The law is not dead, the law lives within us; seems the law would be back on the scene during the days after the gathering together of Yeshua's body of believers off the earth, the Israelites will be making sacrifices?



Offline FredSnell  
#28 Posted : Friday, December 21, 2012 1:10:55 AM(UTC)
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Posted without permission. So responder will remain anonymous.

I'm posting this exchange of back and forth e-mails from last night. I'd like others to consider the word used in his last exchange on the subject. That word is, [because.]


Yes, I have heard that about Mark, but it seems that he left Peter to accompany Paul on one or more of his missionary journeys. So I no longer trust what he is reputed to have written about Yahowsha.

I have a copy of "Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Complete and Unabridged New Updated Edition" (English translation). It smacks so loudly of Roman Catholicism that I went so far as to write on the front cover in thick black magic marker, "HEAVILY DOPED WITH THE HERESIES OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC SYSTEM: READ WITH CAUTION!" In it, Eusebius refers to bishops as though they were ordained by Yah and assumes the air that marks those who have sold themselves to religion. He was not one of us. So whatever he wrote, in my opinion, was subject to his RCC bias.

I can't speak for you, of course, but I can tell you what I think I can believe. The TPP (except for Ezra and Nehemiah, who were apparently the first Pharisees based on their behavior and words) is trustworthy, but only if we realize that there are copy edits and deliberate mistranslations. In my opinion, Mattanyah and Yahochanan are more or less reliable; so are 1 Kepha, 1,2,3 Yahochanan, Ya'aqob, and Revelation (up through chapter 17).

Using Logos 4 to check Yada's translations has proven immeasurably helpful to me, Fred. "Shamar" really does mean "to listen" and really doesn't mean "to obey". "Mizwah" really does mean "the terms of a contract, the wise instruction of a parent or teacher" and really does not mean "commandment".

I would not have been confident accepting those non traditional definitions had I not been able to research it for myself, Fred. That alone justifies the expense of the Logos program, in my opinion.

A command says, "Don't do that." An instruction says, "Don't do that because..." Huge difference. For example, "Don't eat pig. [Because] It will be an abomination to you." It has been proven to be true, hasn't it? So that was an instruction and not a command. "Be set apart." That sounds like a command to me. UNTIL I think it through. "Be set apart [because if you aren't, you will not be acceptable to Me]." It's like, "Don't stick that paper clip into that electrical outlet [because it will cause you to feel pain and will knock you on your ass]." That is an instructive warning, not a command.

Anyway, I say all that to say that the TPP is reliable IF we remember that we will actually need to take some time to make sure what we're reading has been accurately translated. It takes some work from time to time, but what other choice have we if we want to be sure we're getting the truth? So I tend to not read much of what others are writing about Paul, or Kepha, or whoever, choosing instead to use that time to verify the TPP I'm reading. Yahowah's Words are life and peace and health; man's words are just information, and not always trustworthy information at that.
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