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Offline dajstill  
#1 Posted : Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:14:25 AM(UTC)
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I used to say this a lot! I also used to say "I will just pray about that person" which really meant "I don't like what they are doing, saying, or how they are living. I am going to ask God to change them." xthians really, really like to pray for other people. Sometimes in a good way, like praying for someone to be healed. However, I was also taught that "prayer changes things" and those "things" were sometimes people

I have to admit, that sometimes I am at a loss as to what to say for those times when my number 1 response would have been to pray. For instance, I often hear/see people say "pray for me" or "pray that God show me what to do". However, they don't really want that. Yahowah provided lots of advice/answers for most of the things we face in His Towrah. Most people don't need to pray, but to read. But then there are those times when people say "my grandpa is in the hospital, please pray for him." or "I am asking God for healing, please pray with me." Honest to goodness, I am at a loss at those times.

I put this topic here because I am realizing most request for "prayer" are often requests to ask Yahowah to usurp "their" free will or the free will of others. For instance, they want someone to pray that God "have them make the right choice" or "tell them the right choice". And then there are the "pray I get this job" top prayers would be praying that God force the hiring official to hire them and not the other guy who also asked his friends to pray that he got the job.

Many people base some of these requests on the "Lord's prayer". But honestly, I don't even pray for myself the way I used to. I used to say "Yahowah do this" or "Yahowah don't allow that" or "Yahowah help me do this. But now I often wonder, am I allowed to ask Yahowah to go against my own free will? I am not saying that I don't depend on Him completely, I do. I need Him. I need the Set Apart Spirit. But, the thought of praying for Yahowah to override free will just doesn't feel right to me. I know that Yahowah heals, but I no longer feel comfortable praying for Yahowah to heal random people (like someones grandpa that might be ready to go).

I don't know if I am using the right words, but hopefully someone can relate to what I am saying and give me their thoughts. I do know that I don't want anyone in any religion praying for me.
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Offline FredSnell  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 12:15:48 AM(UTC)
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First off, hoping you, and all, had a wonderful festival on Kippurym. We certainly did and feel like we have been washed clean, in a sense. We spent our day at the beach. A day when the goyim are busy at work and their children are in school, was just what the doctor ordered for us. We felt we had it to ourselves, yesterday. It was really a nice day to reflect and approach our adoptive Mom so we could reconcile our relationship with Dad. Did I pray yesterday, I did once and it was the same prayer He mentions. I did tell Yahowah I had some things in my life I was straightening out. I didn't pray for help overcoming my failings b/c I know in my heart I can conquer what ails me. My wife, she just takes off on her own, walking, and when she returned flashing her smile, I didn't need to ask her one thing, b/c I knew she had done, what was asked of us all. We later held hands and walked to beach as we listened to scripture on the Ipod, and then the SM show came on and we heard that as well. It was just another wonderful festival for us, and I hope for the rest of you guys as well.

As far as praying for others, nope, I don't do it. Haven't done it for almost a yr now. And if someone was to tell me they are going to pray for me, like JWs will say when they are leaving, well, maybe after yesterday I shouldn't write what I say. But it's not a friendly response I assure you. Sort of like a whale surfacing to catch a breath of air and what we see..)
When my wife was hospitilized, many were trying to pray to their lord back last dec. And they have that right as long as you don't do it around me. It caused quite a few stirs I assure you. I almost physically removed one from her room, and then fussed at another over the phone, and sent their clams back that they thought we would accept in lue of flowers, which we don't accept either at the time. But I really don't like dwelling on it anymore b/c it hurts knowing these ppl are never going anyplace. They are just stuck in time, aging in their bodies not growing, and little I can do to awaken them anymore. I did give it another shot before Kippurym, by writing my family I grew up knowing, and told them what this festival represents to all mankind, and only got one reponse. So be it!
Do I care if others pray that know Yah. Certainly not. I hope He hears every desire you have, but I too think He knows what you need already, so it sort of mute if you get my drift.
Offline dajstill  
#3 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 1:40:38 AM(UTC)
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Thanks encounterHim!

That really helped! You articulated my feelings well. I was rambling in my post because I think I had several things rolling around in my mind. I do think prayer is okay for individuals, whatever god they choose to pray to. It was the requests I was seeing pretty consistently from xthians.

I remember during tornadoes near me I even requested prayers for peace. Now, today, I don't think I would do that. I might definitely ask for folks to remind me of some words from the towrah that deals with fear if I just couldn't shake the feeling. But, instead of praying I really should be making sure we have our "shelter in place" ready (interior bathroom), blankets, water, weather radio, food, etc. Do I think Yahowah would/could protect His children - YES! But, I don't need someone else to pray for me that He does it! My children don't need to ask each other "hey, can you go ask mom if she will feed me today?", "hey, can you go ask dad if he will protect me today if I get chased by a bear?"! No way, we are going to protect our kids because they are our children, whether or not they ask for our protection. In fact, many times when we are protecting/providing for our children they don't even realize it.

My old notion of prayer was actually quite the opposite of relationship. I was "appealing" for mercy, forgiveness, love, direction, instruction, etc., etc., etc. I don't have to constantly ask for those things - Yahowah has already freely provided them. I need to read and study His instructions and Mom will be there to enlighten me during my studies. Even in the time of Moseh, folks didn't "ask" for forgiveness or atonement, there was a set of instructions to follow. Yahowsha' did the work on Passover and Unleavened Bread and my job is not to sit around weeping, gnashing my teeth, and begging for mercy; my job is to walk towards Him, on His path, following His plan and as I walk I will become perfected. Prayer used to be about putting it all in "His Hands" when the responsibility was mine, He did His part and He let me know when the next time was going to be when He would be showing up again - this thing, this walk, it's up to me.

Now, talking with Father - that is different. I am often times studying or listening to a broadcast and I can't help but thank Father for His brilliance, I am overwhelmed at times for the enlightenment, I can't help but do a dance when I think about how clear the path was out of Babylon when I sought it. And yes, sometimes I even vent my frustrations or have a good cry. It isn't about seeking mercy or punishment; just human emotions with Father. I think that's why I can't really pray for others or ask others to pray for me. Speaking with Yahowah is a very personal thing. Looking back, often times when I asked someone to pray or someone asked me to pray - what we both really wanted was a friend. Sitting a chatting with someone, having a shoulder someone can lean on and have a good cry on. Then I think back to Adam, Yahowah made it clear that what Adam needed was a companion like himself, flaws and all. I think about how I love the talks, walks, and time with my husband. I love speaking with my mom. And it would be almost too wonderful for words if we lived near other like minded families. Folks keep asking for prayer and others will gladly give it to them. It easy to throw up a "bless them" or a "keep them" or even a "heal them", so much more love can be shown if we would help each other out. Instead of asking Yah for a miracle, we can have a fundraiser or just go into our own piggy banks. Instead of asking for healing we could go and stroke someone's hair, massage their feet, get them a cup of water, or clean the house and cook dinner while they recover. It's actually so much more socially acceptable to say "pray for me" than it is to say, "I need a friend right now, right here in the flesh, flaws and all". I should always know the answer to any question is the opposite of what Babylon says to do. Think about anytime someone in is in front of a camera when anything has happened, from the president on down their first statement is "keep them in you prayers" or "I am asking for prayers" or "your prayers are welcome". You know, if I never read the towrah, but just did the opposite of what Babylon says to do I would be okay. Just think of Chawah. If she had just done the opposite of the snakes instructions, she would have been okay, even if she didn't quite fully understand what Yahowah had told Adam.

Prayer usually puts people into absolute non-action. People will say "stop and pray" and even "don't do anything until God speaks". And then, when they think they have heard the answer, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, it's full speed ahead. Then you don't even have to be responsible for it! You get to say "well, God said do it so I did it".

Thanks again encounterHim!
Offline cgb2  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 2:43:02 AM(UTC)
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Maybe looking up examples can help. We for certain know Yahowsha defined what was and wasn't "prayer" in Mat 6 (public vs private). I think KJV uses "pray" much too often, sorta like we say "pray tell..." (and because of that I may have chose the wrong word in this quick search).

Seems most examples of prayer are seeking understanding/judgement while studying his word and done in private.

H6419
פּלל
pâlal
BDB Definition:
1) to intervene, interpose, pray
1a) (Piel) to mediate, judge
1b) (Hithpael)
1b1) to intercede
1b2) to pray
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1776

H6419
פּלל
pâlal
Total KJV Occurrences: 81
pray, 34
Num_21:7 (2), 1Sa_7:5, 1Sa_12:19, 1Sa_12:23, 2Sa_7:27, 1Ki_8:30, 1Ki_8:33, 1Ki_8:35, 1Ki_8:42, 1Ki_8:44, 1Ki_8:48, 1Ki_13:6, 1Ch_17:25, 2Ch_6:24, 2Ch_6:26, 2Ch_6:32, 2Ch_6:38, 2Ch_7:14, Neh_1:6, Job_42:8, Psa_5:2, Psa_32:6, Isa_16:12, Isa_45:20, Jer_7:16, Jer_11:14, Jer_14:11, Jer_29:7, Jer_29:12, Jer_37:3, Jer_42:2, Jer_42:4, Jer_42:20
prayed, 30
Gen_20:17, Num_11:2, Num_21:7, Deu_9:20, Deu_9:26, 1Sa_1:10, 1Sa_1:27, 1Sa_2:1, 1Sa_8:6, 2Ki_4:33, 2Ki_6:17-18 (2), 2Ki_19:15, 2Ki_19:20, 2Ki_20:2, 2Ch_30:18, 2Ch_32:20, 2Ch_32:24, 2Ch_33:13, Ezr_10:1, Neh_2:4 (2), Job_42:10, Isa_37:15, Isa_37:21, Isa_38:2, Jer_32:16, Dan_9:4, Jon_4:1-2 (2)
praying, 5
1Sa_1:12, 1Sa_1:26, 1Ki_8:54, 2Ch_7:1, Dan_9:20
prayeth, 4
1Ki_8:28, 2Ch_6:19-20 (2), Isa_44:17
prayer, 2
Neh_4:9, Psa_72:15
entreat, 1
1Sa_2:25
judge, 1
1Sa_2:25
judged, 1
Eze_16:52
judgment, 1
Psa_106:30
supplication, 1
Isa_45:14
thought, 1
Gen_48:11
Offline cgb2  
#5 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 2:48:45 AM(UTC)
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Mat 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the congregations and on the corners of the streets, to be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mat 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place. And your Father who sees in secret shall reward you openly.
Mat 6:7 “And when praying, do not keep on babbling like the gentiles. For they think that they shall be heard for their many words.
Mat 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Pro 28:9 He who turns away his ear from hearing the Torah, Even his prayer is an abomination1. Footnote: 1See also 15:29, Isa. 59:1-2, John 9:31, 1 John 3:22.
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Offline dajstill  
#6 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 2:59:34 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for these! Seems like many of the "corporate prayer" sort of things were when Yahowah was dealing with Israel as a "group". He was speaking almost exclusively through Mosses or Samuel and the like. But, we as individuals now don't need an "intermediary" for us to speak with Father.

This is just fascinating!!!
Offline FredSnell  
#7 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 7:05:18 AM(UTC)
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I love standing on the edge of the worlds waters and saying His Prayer as it washes over my feet. I love thinking the waters will take my thought to Israels shores. I wish the children there would awaken, but again, they too are locked into what the caller, Jeff, yesterday told the audience about. Great show by the way! Seems like some people are waking up. Jeff was very enlightening. To me at least he was.
Offline Richard  
#8 Posted : Friday, September 28, 2012 5:09:27 PM(UTC)
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Based on the Skype conversation during this morning's "Shattering Myths" broadcast, my whole view of prayer was changed. It was simple, reasonable, and profoundly moving. James wrote that prayer for others is not about seeking to get Yah to override someone's free will, but rather it's about reasoning with Him and asking Him to extend more mercy, to hold off on the execution of a judgment. The difference is subtle but huge, and it rocked my world.

Offline cgb2  
#9 Posted : Saturday, September 29, 2012 2:59:21 AM(UTC)
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Was thinking of this passage (although Luke hearsay, not eyewitness) and folks trying to attribute all accidents to God's retribution for greater sin. The tower example made me think of "when most folks make mistakes it costs money, when engineers make mistakes people die".

Luk 13:1 And some were present at that time, reporting to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their offerings.
Luk 13:2 And יהושע answering, said to them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they have suffered like this?
Luk 13:3 “I say to you, no! But unless you repent you shall all perish in the same way.
Luk 13:4 “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Shiloaḥ fell and killed them, do you think that they were greater offenders than all other men who dwelt in Yerushalayim?
Luk 13:5 “I say to you, no! But unless you repent you shall all perish in the same way.”
Luk 13:6 And He spoke this parable, “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
Luk 13:7 “And he said to the gardener, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down, why does it even make the ground useless?’
Luk 13:8 “And he answering, said to him, ‘Master, leave it this year too, until I dig around it and throw manure.
Luk 13:9 ‘And if indeed it bears fruit, good. But if not so, you shall cut it down.’ ”
Offline cgb2  
#10 Posted : Saturday, September 29, 2012 3:58:31 AM(UTC)
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flintface wrote:
Based on the Skype conversation during this morning's "Shattering Myths" broadcast, my whole view of prayer was changed. It was simple, reasonable, and profoundly moving. James wrote that prayer for others is not about seeking to get Yah to override someone's free will, but rather it's about reasoning with Him and asking Him to extend more mercy, to hold off on the execution of a judgment. The difference is subtle but huge, and it rocked my world.



It sure was. Here's the discussion edited for anonyminity and breivity:

,,in new thread "pray for me" but not sure I searched the correct word for "prayer" since I was getting some hits in the Torah. Please chime in if I was in error.

palal is the Hebrew word often translated as prayer. And it has 6 occurances in the Towrah. 2 in Ba'reshiyth, 2 in Dabaym, and 2 in Ba'mid'dabar

In each case intercede is a more accurate rendering of the word.
Gen 20:7, Gen 20:17, Num 11:2 Num 21:7, Deu 9:20, Deu 9:26

Cool. It beffudled me how that conflicted with Yada saying "pray" isn't in the Torah...so was wondering why I got those hits. Maybe there is another word (and even hit it before) that was more related to Daniel asking for understanding...and other examples it was always private, except in Nehemiah

I think Yada meant that praying is never instructed in the Towrah
But prayer as it is thought of today has no place in Scripture. It's one of those things were the dictionary defenition may be accurate, but it is a horrible way to translate it because there are connotations to the word that are so widley accepted that there is no way to seperate it in people's minds.

in fact you look at every example of Moshe palaling, it is one man interceding on behalf of his people, or another. But it is not asking God to change the person, but asking God to hold off on judgment

Prayer today is asking God to change man. Prayer in Scripture is asking God to hold off, or postpone judgment, or in the case of Daniel remove the punishment and give them a second chance.

That is a telling point.

Asking Yah to change His mind rather than asking Him to change someone else.

What a distinction!

so instead of asking God to forgive someone, you would ask God to give them time to come around.

I'm not posting these in support. I'm just posting what I am finding.

People prayed, we find many times in versues, but He did not ask them to?
Matthew 6:7, Ecclesiastes 5:2, 2 Chronicles 7:14

H6419
פּלל
pâlal
paw-lal'
A primitive root; to judge (officially or mentally); by extension to intercede, pray: - intreat, judge (-ment), (make) pray (-er, -ing), make supplication.

That's the Hebrew word in 2 Chronicles 7:14 which was translated as "pray".
So rather than being an injunction to "pray" as we think of it today, it sounds more like it's a call to reconsider.

And that makes sense in the context of the verse.

Yep...far different than modern ideas of prayer. Thanks all. Intercede is a much better english word to use

wow also 'to judge'
that says a lot

Doesn't it? "Judge not by what you see. Rather, judge righteous judgment." Yahowsha said that somewhere. I'll look it up.

and intervene and interceed and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways, then I shall hear from the heavens, and forgive their sin and heal their land.

and judge could also be discern like when Daniel was praying for understanding

doesn't that sound a lot more like God, then asking for us to pray. Actions not words.

This is so beneficial being with you all here.

John 7:24

Well, there was me, but I was wrong. (facepalm)

Dan 9:2-23

Matthew 7:1
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Offline cgb2  
#11 Posted : Saturday, September 29, 2012 4:00:03 AM(UTC)
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G4336
προσεύχομαι
proseuchomai
Total KJV Occurrences: 90
pray, 42
Mat_5:44, Mat_6:5-7 (3), Mat_6:9, Mat_14:23, Mat_19:13, Mat_24:20, Mat_26:36, Mat_26:41, Mar_6:46, Mar_11:24, Mar_13:18, Mar_13:33, Mar_14:32, Mar_14:38, Luk_6:12, Luk_9:28 (2), Luk_11:1-2 (2), Luk_18:1, Luk_18:10, Luk_22:40, Luk_22:46, Act_10:9, Rom_8:26, 1Co_14:13-15 (5), Col_1:9 (2), 1Th_5:17, 1Th_5:25, 2Th_1:11, 2Th_3:1, 1Ti_2:8, Heb_13:18, Jam_5:13-14 (2)
prayed, 25
Mat_26:39, Mat_26:42, Mat_26:44, Mar_14:35 (2), Mar_14:39, Luk_5:16, Luk_9:29, Luk_18:11, Luk_22:41, Luk_22:44, Act_1:24, Act_6:6, Act_8:15, Act_9:40, Act_10:30, Act_13:3, Act_14:23, Act_16:25, Act_20:36, Act_21:5, Act_22:17, Act_28:8, Jam_5:17-18 (2)
praying, 12
Mar_11:25, Luk_1:10, Luk_3:21, Luk_9:18, Luk_11:1, Act_11:5, Act_12:12, 1Co_11:4, Eph_6:18, Col_4:3 (2), Jud_1:20
make, 3
Mat_23:14, Mar_12:40, Luk_20:47
prayeth, 3
Act_9:11, 1Co_11:5, 1Co_14:14
prayers, 2
Mar_12:40, Luk_20:47
prayest, 2
Mat_6:5-6 (2)
prayer, 1
Mat_23:14
Offline cgb2  
#12 Posted : Saturday, September 29, 2012 6:17:17 AM(UTC)
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Just out of curiousity I looked up all the above, also comparing them to what Paul/Sha'ul was teaching. Eye opening in how for the most part a contrast of private intercesion and not asking God to interfere with freewill or delay judgement, VERSUS Paul's public prayers and asking to intervene in freewill (generally in the character of pagan sungods)

Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and persecuting you,

Mat 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the congregations and on the corners of the streets, to be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mat 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place. And your Father who sees in secret shall reward you openly.
Mat 6:7 “And when praying, do not keep on babbling like the gentiles. For they think that they shall be heard for their many words.

Mat 6:7 “And when praying, do not keep on babbling like the gentiles. For they think that they shall be heard for their many words.
Mat 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
Mat 6:9 “This, then, is the way you should pray: ‘Our Father who is in the heavens, let Your Name be set-apart,
Mat 6:10 let Your reign come, let Your desire be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 ‘Give us today our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 ‘And do not lead us into trial,1 but deliver us from the wicked one –
<note: Pre-constantine manuscripts end here>

Mat 14:23 And having dismissed the crowds, He went up to the mountain by Himself to pray. And when evening had come, He was alone there.

Mat 19:13 Then young children were brought to Him to lay His hands on them and pray, and the taught ones rebuked them.

Mat 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you eat up widows’ houses, and for a show make long prayers. Because of this you shall receive greater judgment.

Mat 24:20 “And pray that your flight does not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Mat 26:36 Then יהושע came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the taught ones, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”

Mat 26:39 And going forward a little, He fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I desire, but as You desire.”

Mat 26:42 Again He went away, a second time, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is impossible for this to pass unless I drink it, let Your desire be done.”

Mar 6:46 And having sent them away, He went away to the mountain to pray.

Mar 11:24 “Because of this I say to you, whatever you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
Mar 11:25 “And whenever you stand praying, if you hold whatever against anyone, forgive, so that your Father in the heavens shall also forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 13:18 “And pray that your flight does not take place in winter.

Mar 13:33 “Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is –

Mar 14:32 And they came to a place called Gethsemane. And He said to His taught ones, “Sit here while I pray.”

Mar 14:35 And He went on a little, and fell on the ground, and was praying that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him.

Mar 14:38 “Watch and pray, lest you enter into trial. The spirit indeed is eager, but the flesh is weak.”
Mar 14:39 And again He went away and prayed, and spoke the same words.

Mar 12:40 who are devouring widows’ houses, and for a show make long prayers. These shall receive greater judgment.”

Luk 1:10 And the entire crowd of people was praying outside at the hour of incense.

Luk 3:21 And it came to be, when all the people were immersed, יהושע also being immersed, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Luk 5:16 But He was often withdrawing Himself to lonely places and praying.

Luk 6:12 And in those days it came to be that He went out to the mountain to pray, and was spending the night in prayer to Elohim.

Luk 9:18 And it came to be, as He was alone praying, the taught ones were with Him, and He asked them, saying, “Who do the crowds say that I am?”

Luk 9:28 And it came to be, about eight days after these words, taking with Him Kĕpha and Yoḥanan and Yaʽaqoḇ, He went up to the mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And it came to be, as He prayed, the appearance of His face changed, and His garment dazzling white.

Luk 11:1 And it came to be while He was praying in a certain place, as He ceased, one of His taught ones said to Him, “Master, teach us to pray, as Yoḥanan also taught his taught ones.”
Luk 11:2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in the heavens, let Your Name be set-apart, let Your reign come, let Your desire be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Luk 11:3 “Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 “And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into trial, but rescue us from the wicked one.”

Luk 18:1 And He spoke a parable to them, that they should always pray and not lose heart,
Luk 18:2 saying, “In a certain city there was a certain judge, not fearing Elohim nor regarding man.
Luk 18:3 “And a widow was in that city, and she came to him, saying, ‘Do right to me on my adversary.’
Luk 18:4 “And he would not for a while, but afterward he said within himself, ‘Even if I do not fear Elohim nor regard man,
Luk 18:5 yet because this widow troubles me I shall do right to her, lest by her continual coming she wears me out.’ ”
Luk 18:6 And the Master said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge said.
Luk 18:7 “And shall Elohim not do right by all means to His own chosen ones who are crying out day and night to Him, and being patient over them?

Luk 18:9 And He also spoke this parable to some who relied on themselves that they were righteous, and looking down on others:
Luk 18:10 “Two men went up to the Set-apart Place to pray – the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11 “The Pharisee stood and began to pray with himself this way, ‘Elohim, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men, swindlers, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
Luk 18:12 ‘I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I possess.’
Luk 18:13 “But the tax collector standing at a distance would not even raise his eyes to the heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘Elohim, show favour unto me, a sinner!’
Luk 18:14 “I say to you, this man went down to his house declared right, rather than the other. For everyone who is exalting himself shall be humbled, and he who is humbling himself shall be exalted.”

Luk 20:47 who devour widows’ houses, and for a show make long prayers. They shall receive greater judgment.”

Luk 22:40 And coming to the place, He said to them, “Pray that you do not enter into trial.”
Luk 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and falling on His knees He was praying,
Luk 22:42 saying, “Father, if it be Your counsel, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My desire, but let Yours be done.”
Luk 22:43 And there appeared a messenger from heaven to Him, strengthening Him.
Luk 22:44 And being in agony, He was praying more earnestly. And His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And rising up from prayer, and coming to His taught ones, He found them sleeping from grief.
Luk 22:46 And He said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, lest you enter into trial.”

Act 1:23 And they put forward two: Yosĕph called Barsabba, who was also called Justus, and Mattithyahu.
Act 1:24 And praying they said, “You, יהוה, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two You have chosen
Act 1:25 to receive the share in this service and office of the emissary from which Yehuḏah by transgression fell, to go to his own place.”
Act 1:26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Mattithyahu. And he was numbered with the eleven emissaries.

Act 9:40 But Kĕpha sent them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Taḇitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and seeing Kĕpha, she sat up.

Act 10:9 And on the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Kĕpha went up on the house-top to pray, about the sixth hour.

Act 11:4 But Kĕpha began and set it forth in order, saying:
Act 11:5 “I was in the city of Yapho praying. And in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel descending like a great sheet, let down from the heaven by four corners, and it came to me.

Act 12:11 And when Kĕpha had come to himself, he said, “Now I truly know that יהוה has sent His messenger, and delivered me from the hand of Herodes and from all the Yehuḏite people were anticipating.”
Act 12:12 And having realised this, he went to the house of Miryam, the mother of Yoḥanan who was also called Mark, where many had gathered to pray.

Jas 5:13 Is any of you suffering evil? Let him pray. Is anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, having anointed him with oil in the Name of the Master.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of the belief shall save the sick, and the Master shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he shall be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, so that you are healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous one accomplishes much.
Jas 5:17 Ěliyahu was a man with feelings like us, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain. And it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
Jas 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the land brought forth its fruit.

Jud 1:20 But you, beloved ones, building yourselves up on your most set-apart belief, praying in the Set-apart Spirit,
Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of Elohim, looking for the compassion of our Master יהושע Messiah unto everlasting life.

================================================================
Paul/Sha'ul:
Act 6:6 whom they set before the emissaries. And when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.

Act 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them to receive the Set-apart Spirit,

Act 13:3 Then having fasted and prayed, and having laid hands on them, they sent them away.

Act 14:23 And having appointed elders in every assembly, having prayed with fasting, they committed them to the Master in whom they had believed.

Act 16:25 And at midnight Sha’ul and Sila were praying and singing songs to Elohim, and the prisoners were listening to them.

Act 20:36 And having said this, he knelt down and prayed with them all.

Act 21:5 And when it came to be that our days there were ended, we left and went on, all of them accompanying us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city. And kneeling down on the beach, we prayed.

Act 22:17 “And it came to be, when I returned to Yerushalayim, and while I was praying in the Set-apart Place, I came to be in a trance,

Act 28:8 And it came to be that the father of Poplius lay sick with inflammation and dysentery. Sha’ul went in to him, and having prayed he laid his hands on him and healed him.

Rom 8:26 And in the same way the Spirit does help in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray, but the Spirit Himself pleads our case for us with groanings unutterable.
Rom 8:27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the set-apart ones according to Elohim.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all matters work together for good to those who love Elohim, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Eph 6:18 praying at all times, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the set-apart ones;
Eph 6:19 also for me, that a word might be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to be bold in making known the secret of the Good News,
Eph 6:20 for which I am an envoy in chains, that in it I might speak boldly, as I should speak.

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, brings shame to his Head.

1Co 14:13 Therefore, he who is speaking in a tongue, let him pray that he might interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I am praying in a tongue, my spirit is praying, but my understanding is without fruit.
1Co 14:15 What then is it? I shall pray with the spirit, and I shall also pray with the understanding. I shall sing with the spirit, and I shall also sing with the understanding.

Col 1:1 Sha’ul, an emissary of יהושע Messiah by the desire of Elohim, and Timothy our brother,
Col 1:2 to the set-apart ones in Colosse, and true brothers in Messiah: Favour to you and peace from Elohim our Father and the Master יהושע Messiah.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to the Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 having heard of your belief in Messiah יהושע and of your love for all the set-apart ones,
Col 1:5 because of the expectation that is laid up for you in the heavens, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the Good News,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as also in all the world it is bearing fruit and growing, as also among you, since the day you heard and knew the favour of Elohim in truth,
Col 1:7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow servant, who is a true servant of Messiah on your behalf,
Col 1:8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 That is also why we, from the day we heard, have not ceased praying for you, and asking that you be filled with the knowledge of His desire in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,

Col 4:2 Continue in prayer, watching therein, with thanksgiving,
Col 4:3 praying at the same time also for us, that Elohim would open to us a door for the word, to speak the secret of Messiah, for which I am also in chains,
Col 4:4 so that I make it clear, as I should speak.

1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,

1Th 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2Th 1:11 To this end we always pray for you that our Elohim would count you worthy of this calling, and complete all the good pleasure of goodness, and the work of belief with power,

2Th 3:1 For the rest, brothers, pray for us, so that the Word of יהוה spreads rapidly and be praised, as also with you,
2Th 3:2 and that we might be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men, for not all have belief.

1Ti 2:8 So I resolve that the men pray everywhere, lifting up hands that are set-apart, without wrath and disputing.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us, for we trust that we have a good conscience, desiring to behave well in every way.


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DJPowers on 9/14/2015(UTC)
Offline dajstill  
#13 Posted : Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:13:05 AM(UTC)
dajstill
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I don't think there is anything wrong with asking Yahowah to help people see clearly, see clearly so that they can make a good choice. I don't see anything wrong with praying for protection. Here are the types of things I see as wrong that have been requested of me in the past:

"pray that I get this job" - that is clearly asking that Yahowah take away the free will of the person doing the hiring. That is declaring it is Yahowah who determines who works and who has to be unemployed. What my response today would be is: "do you need some help with your resume? would you like me to do a mock interview with you? do you need help researching the company?" Why? Because I can't find anywhere in the torah that Yahowah is in the business of deciding which of us get the earthly prize of employment. I don't see where He declared the one who prayed the best prayer, the longest prayer, the right words, etc. ended up being the one who got the cool jobs or the high paying job and those without the right words didn't.

Praying that Yahowah delay judgement is fair. It is simply asking that Yahowah delay, not asking Him to interfere where He didn't already plan to tread. However, asking for a delay only gives people time to change their mind, change their actions, walk to Yahowah.

Now, here is an interesting situation in Genesis Chapter 20, the story of Abraham and Abimelek. Abraham lied to Abimelek, so Abimelek to Sarah, but didn't touch her. Yahowah came to Abimelek in a dream and told him that he was as good as dead for having Sarah in his house. Abimelek replied that his hands were clean and Yahowah said in Gen 20:6 - "Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."

Looking at Genesis 19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, if we look at 19:16 - the messengers of Yahowah actually grabbed Lot and His family by the hand and pushed him out of town! Lot was still able to negotiate exactly where he fled to.

Here is the thing, those things didn't happen through prayer, they happened through relationship. Yahowah knows how to take care of His children. Yes, sometimes we forget, sometimes we need encouragement. Just like our kids will ask us "mommy, daddy do you love me?", "mommy, daddy make sure you tuck me in real tight at night so I don't fall out the bed.", "mommy, daddy if a bear tries to break into our house will you keep the bear away." Of course you always answer yes, of course you reassure them of your love. Hearing "I love you", hearing "yes I will keep you from fall", hearing "yes, I will protect you." all of those things are important as children, which we are! However, if your child never asked you for protection - you would still provide it! If your children never asked you to keep them, lead them, guide them, you would still do it.

What I am saying is a "reliance" on prayer is ill founded. Yahowah is a loving Father completely capable of taking care of His children. So, while as children we may need additional assurance, it isn't the prayer that gets us protection, it is relationship. He loves us and just like Lot was grabbed by the hand and pushed out of town before the destruction came - Yahowah has promised to keep us OUT OF His final judgement. Just like He came to Abimelek and said "look, you had a clear conscience (you were deceived by someone you had every right to trust because they were in covenant relationship with me) I KEPT YOU FROM sinning against me." Abimelek didn't pray for it, Yahowah did it anyway.

When Dowd cried out to Yahowah in so many Psalms, it is deep at times, gut wrenching at times, peaceful and restful at times, joyful and free at times. Those are all ranges of human emotion, real and raw human emotion having a real relationship with Yahowah. I did a simple search that was profound to "me" and that was instead of looking up "prayer", I looked up "cried". Now THIS is when I found our friend Dowd!

Psalm 3:4
Psalm 18:6
Psalm 22:5
Psalm 30:2
Psalm 30:8
Psalm 31:22
Psalm 66:17
Psalm 77:1
Psalm 88:13
Psalm 107:6
Psalm 107:13
Psalm 119:146
Psalm 120:1

There are a lot more, but you get the picture. Again, I think of children. I will always protect my children, but when any of my children cry out in distress the entire universe stops for me. Nothing, no one is more important is the cosmos of the galaxies than that baby of mine that cries out with a true and desperate cry for help. Most of the time, in the end, their distress was over what to me was such a little thing. Sometimes they "thought" they saw something when nothing was even there. Sometimes it is a little spider that they them is big and scary. Sometimes they have gotten themselves stuck somewhere. For instance, I have one child with an uncanny ability to lock himself into rooms! "I" didn't lock the door, he did, but He does need me to open it. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Have "we" locked some doors Yahowah initially left open, but we need Him to come and open them again? The point is, while the children's problem is small and easily solved and sometimes it isn't even a problem at all - I don't respond due to the nature of the problem, I respond to the distress that my child is feeling. I will always protect them, I will always feed them, I will always provide, that is without question. However, I also understand the emotional and psychological needs of my children. I am moved by the distress because distress is not right, it is not healthy, it needs to be dealt with and answered. Yahowah, as a loving Father will chat with us any time we like. I guess we can call that prayer, but really its talking with our Father. And yes, there are times when we chat with our Father about other people "Dad, my brother has been feeling kind of down lately, can you remind him that You love him." Hey Dad, I am a little worried about my sister, can you shine a bit more light on her so that she can see clearly the decisions that she is making." Yes, pray/talk often. But as a Father, He also needs to hear our calls of distress. He will answer because He cares about our emotional and mental well being also. Yes, cry out to Yahowah. Cry out in all of your raw pain and fear. You don't need anyone to cry out on your behalf. In fact, you waste time in your distress if you go asking for other people to "pray for you". Imagine your house catching on fire. Do you call your neighbor and say "hey, can you call 911 for me, the house is burning". No - you call. Now, if I see my neighbors house on fire, of course I will call 911 as well. But, they don't need to request it. But, as a loving and caring neighbor, calling 911 isn't enough, I don't stop there. I will also go outside your home and call out to you and see if you are awake inside and okay. If I see you running out the house I will meet you with blankets, I will offer you my home so you can get warm and dry and have a place to rest your head. I don't just call 911 and go back to bed. That is the impersonal nature of "pray for me" and "I'll pray for you" that I have grown to despise. When we shirk off human compassion and helping our neighbor for a little "I'll pray for you" when someone is hungry or hurting. Why pray for Yahowah to send manna from heaven when I can give you a loaf of bread? Why pray for Yahowah to comfort you when I can sit next to you and talk to you, fix you a cup of tea, pat your back, lighten your load?

Hopefully that helps clarify my thoughts. Will try to listen to the archived show. Wish I could listen live and do skype, but can't with my schedule.
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DJPowers on 9/14/2015(UTC)
Offline dajstill  
#14 Posted : Monday, October 1, 2012 3:37:05 AM(UTC)
dajstill
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Location: Alabama

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Also, in the event that I might actually be able to do skype one day - where are the directions posted?
Offline knowing1  
#15 Posted : Monday, October 1, 2012 4:37:07 AM(UTC)
knowing1
Joined: 5/28/2010(UTC)
Posts: 166
Location: New Jersey

It seems to me that it would be a contradiction if we were able to use "prayer" to change people's way of thinking. This would go against Yah's gift of freewill. It is more rational and logical to think that prayer asks Yah to suspend judgement, and give those that are not yet hopeless time to return to Him, even those that have wronged and hurt us and others (our enemies?).
Offline cgb2  
#16 Posted : Monday, October 1, 2012 7:30:03 AM(UTC)
cgb2
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Location: Colorado

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dajstill wrote:
Also, in the event that I might actually be able to do skype one day - where are the directions posted?


Skype program is free.
http://beta.skype.com/en/

Good thing about skype chat is it's continual, so you can chime in 24/7 in even if lot able participate live.
You'll have to send email to James or T (YahTselum??) who can locate and accept you into the group.
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