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Offline kenta147  
#1 Posted : Thursday, September 8, 2011 8:14:07 AM(UTC)
kenta147
Joined: 9/8/2011(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: United States

Heya everyone; Kenta here to ask questions pertaining to Islam. I know that this forum is supposed to be about Islam in Biblical scripture, but I was redirected here from Prophet of Doom, and I didn't know where else to ask. I'll likely revisit this topic with new questions every now and then, so that they're all together in the same place, and so I won't keep having to e-mail Yada or Ken Power and stuffing their inbox. Of course, I don't just want their answers; anybody's knowledge is welcome in my ears. That said, let's begin. I've only got three for now, but they should accumulate over time.

1. Is it acceptable to say that "Allah" is a contraction of the words "al" (the) and "ilah" (god), to form the name that describes the entity?

Elaboration: The POD take on this, from how I understand is: "no, the Qur'an and Hadith clearly define 'Allah' as a proper name, and it's stupid that this god would call himself 'TheGod.'" However, I've seen some reluctant testimony on YouTube from a guy named Sorpotal, who is quite anti-Islam, and uses Arabic symbols in his posts (suggesting he knows Arabic). In one of his posts condemning Allah, he explains that Allah can't be Yahweh, "because Allah means al (the) illah (god)." (He used two L's in the word 'ilah'). His acknowledgment of the contraction leaves me puzzled, and I know I've read it correctly. Insight, anyone?


2. Is Tabari an acceptable source of Islamic history?

Elaboration: Personally, I think Tabari IS usable, because a chronicle of over 70 specific terrorist raids can't just be out of his butt- SOMETHING incited him to write that. However, there are a couple of catches, and Muslims that I've talked to have used them as an excuse to discredit Tabari. Case in point, from YouTube user Trainhard3:
"The reason why his book is unrealiable is simply because on his commentary, he says so. Like I said, I'm no expert in hadiths, but I'm learning and I can tell you this, Tabari is NOT a Hadith collection. I suggest you try to take some islamic study and see it for yourself." -trainhard3
I think Trainhard3 may have gotten that "Tabari not a Hadith" thing from islamic-shield.com. On top of saying that Tabari considers himself unreliable, Trainhard3 also points out the contradictions found in Tabari's work, such as the multiple, differing creation stories. I think Tabari IS useful, but if Muslims won't consider him a reliable source, should I really be using him to discredit Islam in their eyes?


3. Why does POD say that Islam's Five Pillars wouldn't exist without the Hadiths?

Elaboration: I'm a born-again, non-denominational Christian, so by no means am I trying to defend Islam. I have, however, seen Muslims quote the Qur'an for all the following:
3:18 = Oneness of Allah (pillar 1)
20:14 = Obligatory prayer (pillar 2)
7:156 = The religious tax (pillar 3)
2:185 = Ramadan fasting (pillar 4)
22:27-28 = Hajj pilgrimage (pillar 5)
I've looked up these verses and they do check out, so did I somehow misunderstand Prophetofdoom's stance on the matter?


(. . . okay, just one more quick question that occured to me: can I find the 70+ Jihad raids of the early Muslims in any other source than Ishaq/Tabari? Bukhari is supposed to be the most reliable witness, but I haven't found the list of raids in his collection. Thanks!)
Qur’an 60:1 “O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as friends, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord."

Matthew 5:44: “But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”
Offline James  
#2 Posted : Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:18:17 AM(UTC)
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Kenta,

Yada would be the person to ask these, and he doesn't check this forum really. So if you want his reply you will have to email him directly.

I'll go ahead and do my best to answer your questions, although bare in mind it has been some time since I have studied Islam.

For question 1, while Allah may or may not be determined through the combination of Al and Illah, it is used in the Quran as a proper noun meaning it is a name or title, and it is repeatedly said to be a name. As a name it is inappropriate to translate it, it should always be transliterated.

For question 2, it is my understanding based on Muslims that I have talked with, and what I have gathered of Islamic Studies departments at university in the Muslim world that Tabari is used and accepted as Hadith and is studied alongside Bukari and Muslim.

As for question 3 I could be wrong but I believe what Yada means is that the details of these wouldn't exist without the Hadith, i.e. what to say in the prayers, what the tax amount is etc. I could be wrong on this.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kenta147  
#3 Posted : Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:16:27 PM(UTC)
kenta147
Joined: 9/8/2011(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: United States

(Crap, I got a loading error and somehow got logged out. I very nearly lost everything I typed. Copy before posting, people!)

I appreciate your prompt reply, James, even though you weren't sure about everything. I'd contact Yada on the matter, but I get the feeling that he's sick of hearing the same questions over and over, and he's probably way too busy with other feedback, research, interview arrangements, and new projects anyway. So, for Allah's name, I should ask Muslims what his name would be in, say, Japan, Hungary, and Botswana. If they say "Allah," then I confirm that it's a proper noun, and if they say the words for "TheGod" in each language, I can point out that this is the clearest proof that they have a god without an actual name- yet this isn't true, because the Muslim and I know darn well who Allah is, as opposed to Thor, Apollo, and Krishna.

Would you (or anyone else visiting this topic) happen to know the names of the universities that include Tabari's works as legitimate Hadiths? So far, I only have the University of Medina, but a list of names will really add force to my truth hammer.

Now that you've told me, it's so obvious- I should have considered specifics like exact tax required. The Qur'an doesn't give this, nor, for that matter, does it mention how much higher the Jizya (infidel tax) should be than the Zakkat (Muslim tax). That said, I guess this just leaves the alternative chronicles of the 70+ terrorist raids instigated by Muhammad besides Ishaq/Tabari. Does Bukhari have a listing of these? Prophet of Doom doesn't seem to mention many Bukhari stories of raids, leaving it all to Tabari, so if Bukhari is supposed to be such a great Islamic historical account, I would expect to see the same things covered by the other guys. Same with Imam Muslim: he seems to "pull a Venom" (Spider-Man 3 joke) and not show up until almost the end of POD. Did Yada leave the Islamic Raid Chronicles to Tabari/Ishaq in order to save space, or are the higher-regarded Bukhari/Muslim actually devoid of these? (And if they DID exclude the raids, why are they so trusted?)

I know, I'm asking a lot more questions now, but they're popping into my head, and I wanted to write them down before I forgot. I've tried researching Hadiths on the Internet, but it's been almost fruitless; all I can get are snippets and conjecture.
Qur’an 60:1 “O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as friends, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord."

Matthew 5:44: “But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 9, 2011 3:17:41 AM(UTC)
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The only university that comes to mind that I know uses Tabari is Al-Azhar University in Egypt, which is the premier Islamic University in the world.

What I find interesting is that every average Muslim I have talked to tells me that Tabari is regular study in Islamic schools, it's only the apologist that try to distance Islam from it. I spent 8 years working with a Muslim family, and read through POD 3 times while working there. I would ask them about a lot of it, and about the sources. My boss was from Jordan, his partner from Saudi Arabia and his friend who worked there was from Pakistan, and all three said they were taught Tabari in Madrasa.

I think Yada uses Ishaq as much as possible because Ishaq is the oldest known source of information on the formation of Islam, as it is the first book written about it withing 150 years of Mo's life. What's even more interesting about that is that Ishaq's books is not extant what we have is a admitidly heavily edited version where the editor said that he edited out violent verses that made the prophet look bad, and contradictory statements. When you consider what remains you can't help but wonder what he edited out.

Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline kenta147  
#5 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2012 1:58:02 PM(UTC)
kenta147
Joined: 9/8/2011(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: United States

Hey folks, it's me again. I'm feeling somewhat stumped on a new issue brought up. I learned from listening to Prophet of Doom that Islam interprets a flat planet, but a Muslim has recently challenged me on this. I'll quote our conversation thus far.

***

Muslim: "Earth was flat?! huh! I wonder whoe believed that." (*This was an attempt at sarcasm in regard to early Jewish/Christian beliefs via Bible)

Kenta: "Muhammad/Allah did.
Qur'an 15:19 "We have spread out the earth (like a carpet)."
(In Arabic) Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar): "wal'arda MADADNAHA wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat."

Muslim: "Land earth is flat... Planet Earth is spherical. Ardh means earth (land). Alam (World) is what referred as Planet Earth. As you can see, in the old tongues, we call our world -- the Blue World."

Kenta: I think you're hair-splitting, my friend. The Qur'an is supposedly Allah's "final revelation to mankind," but by definition, it isn't a revelation if we're being told things we already know. A round earth would have been a revelation. Sura 18:86 talks about the sun having an appointed setting place, and 18:90, the rising place, and these are only compatible with a flat earth model. Every time the Qur'an mentions our planet's creation, it is described flat.

Muslim: 18:86 -- If you stand at the shore at sun set, you'll see the sun falling into the sea, or setting into the sea. The verse “he found the sun setting in a muddy water” means when someone looks at it, that is what he'll think and see. Alexander arrived to a place where a river in deluge meets with the sea. The water of the river contain mud, and when the sun sets, it would appear to a person looking at it as if it sets in a muddy water.

Kenta: Telling us what we'll think and see is redundant. The only way it could possibly be "revelation" material is if Allah assumes a flat earth, because to reveal where the sun of the flat earth actually sets and rises would be miraculous.
I do hope, for your sake, that you're not suggesting that the resolutely pagan Alexander the Great was actually a Muslim.
I'm curious- why can't "ardh" mean our planet? Where does the Qur'an address the shaping of "alam"?

***

There's where we are so far. The Muslim is suggesting that the flatness of the world, according to the Qur'an, is simply what we perceive, and does not apply to the actual planet because the word "alam" (world) wasn't used. He hasn't responded yet, but I assume that when he does, he'll be telling me that the Qur'an doesn't actually comment anywhere on the planet's shape, and to assume flatness because of the word "ardh" (land) is incorrect. It's what I would do if I were a Muslim. My question is, where should I go from here? Is there anywhere in the Qur'an that DOES use "alam" (world) and overtly states that Earth is flat? Bukhari and Imam Muslim passages are also helpful.

Thank you for viewing.
Qur’an 60:1 “O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as friends, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord."

Matthew 5:44: “But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”
Offline cgb2  
#6 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2012 2:11:27 PM(UTC)
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kenta147 wrote:

....
3. Why does POD say that Islam's Five Pillars wouldn't exist without the Hadiths?

Elaboration: I'm a born-again, non-denominational Christian, so by no means am I trying to defend Islam. I have, however, seen Muslims quote the Qur'an for all the following:
.....


Even more urgent, when you email Yada also request the ItG.
Offline kenta147  
#7 Posted : Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:53:39 AM(UTC)
kenta147
Joined: 9/8/2011(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: United States

Okay, uh . . . I have another question concerning Prophet of Doom. Here's the quote in question:
Bukhari V4B54N470 "Verily! 70,000 of my followers will enter Paradise altogether; so that the first and the last amongst them will enter at the same time."
Apparently, the wording according to Muslims is "70,000 will enter without reckoning." Therefore, according to the YouTube Muslim who pointed this out, the cap is not, in fact, 70,000, as there will still be Muslims entering after their reckoning is over (Islamic purgatory?)

I realize that, later on in the hadith, Muhammad hopes his Muslims (whatever amount of listeners they were) will be one-third, then one-half, of paradise. But I don't know if he's talking about them as the group who "avoided reckoning" or not. So, is there an actual cap to Islamic paradise, or not? As you can probably tell, most of the question is answered. I just need it to be pushed through to the finish line.
Qur’an 60:1 “O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as friends, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord."

Matthew 5:44: “But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2012 6:26:58 AM(UTC)
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There really is no way of knowing, because Mohammad was so contradictory. It's quite obvious from studying Islam that Mo was making it up as he went and thus it is unreliable, and therefor there is not Islamic heaven so there is no cap on who may enter it.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Richard  
#9 Posted : Monday, July 2, 2012 8:11:15 PM(UTC)
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So God created the earth and then the seas and then the fish in the seas, and then he took out one particular fish, pumped it full of supernatural steroids, and recreated the earth on top of it. I think perhaps Muhammad was eating too many of those mushrooms he found in the cow patties around the village. How in the world can people believe this nonsense?
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