I don't think they are saying that God is rewarding Tebow with football wins, but rather that God is using him to bring glory to himself through Tebow by showing a young man bring praise to god for giving him the abilities that he bless him with. I also don't think that Denver will win it all, so if they don't then the reward of winning football games wouldn't be a reward at all. OWe should remember that God can use anyone to draw others to him, including the terrorist of 911, it's through trails & troubled times that brings people to God. Whether or not those that turn towards him will be fruitful or not & continue the journey with God is what is important, not how or who God uses to draw others to him. The question is can Yahuweh use a christian or a terrorist and their false god's & beliefs to draw others to himself, I believe he can & does.

Exactly the point I had tried to make to them James. Their response was "the Bible said we are not to deny 'Christ'" and when I put that scripture out there directly their reply was simply - I disagree because the Bible also says don't deny Him and give Him thanks. If even Yahoshua must take a back seat to Tim Tebow and his interpretation - wow. The twisting of scripture is what is just getting to me. I tried to explain that simply - God is not about picking winners and losers in football games. There are plenty of Christians in the NFL (yes, there are more non Christian, but still) - some do signs after the score (thats another issue), but others simply practice their faith with the fanfare. And who can forget Reggie White, who was known as the "Minister of Defense" because he was so a strong Christian who also became a minister. Christians don't talk about Reggie White anymore - want to know why? Because he said he was believing things because people told him and he wanted to learn the truth for himself. He went so far as to learn Hebrew and travel to Israel so he could read the Scriptures, in Hebrew, with his own eyes. Guess what - he found Yah! He began to openly (but gently) denounce the false teachings in Christianity. Christians began to label him as "crazy" and said that he "lost of faith" but hopefully he would return "to God". When he died they went about bemoaning the fact that he may have died "without Christ". The read story behind his death (accounted by his wife) is that they were driving home and Reggie looked into the sky. He told his wife - "I think God is going to do something tonight", that night he went to sleep and died. So, Christians are buying Tebow jersey's by the truck full because he makes an open show of his faith, yet when someone who was a Christian and a minister dug deep in the Scriptures - in Hebrew, to learn the truth that labeled "crazy", mocked and pitied him, and even insinuated his death might have been the vengeance of God. I think about that fact that I and so many other football fans could have found Yah so much sooner through the true witness of Reggie White - but it was Christians that labeled him a heretic! I remember being encouraged to not dig to deep into scripture in case you get "deceived" with Reggie White as the "guy who went crazy" in which to scare folks.

Truth, I understand the point, but it doesn't add up under scrutiny. Who gave the gifts to the players that don't thank God? The Christian concept has become as of late - they we can tell how much you love God by how "blessed" you are. These Christians were explicitly saying that God is giving Tebow victory because Tebow is being a good "missionary". They went so far as to say God may even take them to the Super Bowl so that Tebow can continue to witness. They have gone into numerology by saying God had him throw for 316 yards. There are young athletes that now prayer in the "T bow" so that the "football God" can help them win games too. They are attaching themselves to Tebow because Tebow openly draws attention to himself.

How would you feel if you went to a restaurant and the waitress thanked God for every spoon she set down on the table, every time she poured a drink she thanked "her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", every time she wrote down an order to said over the loud speaker how she thanked God for giving her the ability to write with a pen and paper. What about going to the dentist and she feeling the need to thank God (loudly) for every tooth in your mouth she checked? How is that not different from Tebow? It is a show.

Now, I am not saying one shouldn't be bold in their faith and thank God for what we are able to do. One of the Christians I respect the most in his profession is Dr. Ben Carson - a brain surgeon. It is well known that he prays (alone or with patients that would like) before every surgery. He is clear to his patients not to look to him as a miracle worker. But he doesn't jump around like a crazy man and do a "God pose" every time he has a successful surgery. I don't think Tebow is a bad guy, I think this is being forced on him. He is getting more and more manic in his profession of faith - like it is a requirement. All eyes are on him while his team winning or losing being a sign of his relationship with God. That is not fair for any person, let alone such a young man. He faith is on public debate now - being largely mocked by non-Christians and the main reason is the idolatry many Christians surrounded him with. Buying his jersey "because he is a Christian", rooting for his team "because is is a Christian". Now calling him a "missionary" and attributing his passing for 316 year as a "sign from God" - he is being turned into a cult figure. While this had been going on since he was in college - it has reached the point of crazy now. And of course, now instead of praying as Yahoshua instructed - children are being encouraged "T bow".

My reply would be, well either the bible contradicts itself or one of us is misunderstanding something. Now since, "when you pray, go into your room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father" is pretty straightforward, let's examine your point. First you have not provided a verse where don't deny Christ is found, I can't address the verse, but let's examine just your words. "Don't deny Christ" Now putting aside the error of Christ, let's look at deny. To deny something you have to be presented with something, Tebow's actions are not a response to someone asking him about Christ, so ceasing them would not be denying Christ. His actions are not done to not deny Christ they are done to draw attention. His not making a scene of praying after every touchdown would not be denying Christ. So by not making a scene of his religiosity he would be both in keeping with Yahowsha's instruction in Matthew 6 and not denying Christ, but by making a scene of it he is ignoring Yahowsha's instruction.

Now most likely that response would fall on deaf ears, but that's what I would say.

Great points all around dajstill. I was having the John 3:16 discussion just the other day. My explanation of 3:16 goes like this. One it the original was not whoever believes in Him, but rather who ever trusts in Him. Second trust requires knowing and understanding. So in order to trust in Him we have to know and understand Him, and there is only one way to do that, His Word. I would also ask them how does God judge rather or not someone trusts Him, or believes in Him for that matter. I would hand them the second chapter of James.

Jas 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!
Jas 2:20 But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Elohim, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And he was called, “Elohim’s friend.”
Jas 2:24 You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.
Jas 2:25 In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.

Note that belief and faith should be trust and rely, I'm using an English translation so....

But as you pointed out for christians it is all a matter of simply proclaiming your belief and calling yourself a christian. Then you get into heaven, which is all they are interested in. They aren't interested in what heaven will be like, they think it will be paradise by there definition. They aren't interested in coming to know God they are interested in avoiding hell. Religion loves the heaven/hell carrot/stick approach. People love religion because religion is simple do this don't do that, say this don't say that, they don't like relationship because relation requires something, it is hard. A relationship requires an investment of time and effort in getting to know someone, of coming to understand them and of coming to know them. In the case of Yahowah that relationship requires spending time in His Towarh because that is the only way that we can know Him. Religion is much simpler, say you believe, go to church every now and then and follow a few rules that the church has given you.

Speaking again of God and Football - I was looking at a video on YouTube of Neimiah Gordon (who wrote the Greek Jesus versus the Hebrew Y'shua) and saw he had a video of Reggie White (the football player known originally as the "minister of defense"). Curious, I clicked on the video. WOW! Reggie White was trying to learn Hebrew so he could read the scriptures for himself and who did YHWH hook him up with - Mr. Gordon! This is important because while not a believer, Gordon is a Kararite Jew - meaning he deals in the Torah only and no oral traditions of the rabbi. So, if you are going to learn Hebrew, best to learn it from a Karaite than a rabbinical Jew in my view.

Well, I kept looking and found some great video clips of Reggie, including this one: http://www.youtube.com/w...p;NR=1&v=CG9Jok84zYs

One thing even brought out in the ESPN clips I found that were about his "religious" experience and saw that once he started on his journey - he NEVER set foot in a Christian church again! Another interesting nugget was what happened just before his death. He had a dream from YHWH in which he saw a torah scroll and on the scroll was written the word "redeemed" in Hebrew. He died the next day. That would be pretty amazing to have such an experience.

By the end of his journey he was a Torah observant believer in Yahoshua, who didn't belong to any religion of men. He learned Hebrew and went to Israel on several occasions to simply see some things for himself. He also did a lot to expose Christianity in as loving a way as possible - having a heart for the people and a hate of the religion. Of course, he was painted as a heretic and a "wanna be jew" by many Christians.

Just interesting to see YHWH is so consistent and true to His word - when you seek Him you do find Him. The more one studies, the more one can no longer in good conscience stay in the Christian faith. And, there is no "religion" out there for those seeking relationship with YHWH. It just doesn't exist.

Yeah tagim, and she comes up with some great quotes too:



That's a keeper

I think the Christian god is quite pleased with Tim Tebow and the likes.
Also the super bowl half time tribute to their god was the most watched ever.
Ha Baal

http://net4surf.com/wp-c...Bowl-Halftime-Show-4.jpg