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Offline Walt  
#1 Posted : Friday, June 17, 2011 2:49:34 PM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

When "keeping" Torah is mention, the 1st thought most people have is "to be completely obedient", but that not what the word "keep" means
to keep, guard, observe, give heed

Quote:
shamar : to keep, guard, observe, give heed

1) to keep, have charge of

2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life

a) watch, watchman (participle)

3) to watch for, wait for

4) to watch, observe

5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)

6) to keep (within bounds), restrain

7) to observe, celebrate, keep (sabbath or covenant or commands), perform (vow)

8) to keep, preserve, protect


We have to stop religious people redefine the meaning of words

Yahowah & His Messiyah states over and over to "Keep" His Torah and Commands
It doesn't mean we have to "be perfect" but that we have to posses and value and guard

christianity doesn't, they've thrown them in the trash heap
judaism has replaced them with Maimonides' list of 613 laws

Abba Father doesn't expect us to be perfect, but to treasure and value and observe ("keep") what He has given His children in His Word
Are we to "keep" the whole Torah - YES, because we can still learn about Yahowah through treasuring it, even if we can't perform it

We have to stop the religious from hijacking what God proclaimed, that is part of Guarding & Protecting
We have to be diligent in bringing clarification when they try to twist it

I will proudly say "I keep the whole Torah" because I'm not going do discard or throw in the trash heap ANY of what Yahowah gave us to keep and treasure, even if I can't perform it or even properly understand it at this time - for I know the time will come when I will be able to.
Those that discard or ignore Torah won't have that chance
Offline Matthew  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 17, 2011 4:58:53 PM(UTC)
Matthew
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I like what you're saying Walt. It's definitely an area that requires clarification.

I've been lately watching a lot of material with Nehemiah Gordon, a well known Karaite Jew who has recently been doing a lot of ministry (conferences, videos, co-authoring books) with guys such as Michael Rood (Messianic), Keith Johnson (Methodist/Messianic) and Arthur Bailey (Messianic/Hebrew Roots). Now, with Nehemiah he shamar(s) the Torah but yet rejects Yahshua, whereas Michael & Co also shamar the Torah but yet still refer to Paul and use the word "Lord," i.e. Feasts of the Lord.

Then there's many Yada Yahweh forum members, who reject anything Paul and even call much of the NT "inaccurate" and "not Scripture," yet they too shamar the Torah.

So the conundrum: who will spend eternity with Yahweh?
Offline Striver  
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 18, 2011 4:04:19 AM(UTC)
Striver
Joined: 4/6/2011(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Missouri

Thanks, Walt. I was especially struck by #5 Treasure up (in memory). Is it posssible that laying up treasure in heaven could be that those who "keep" the Torah are those who will be remembered? Perhaps as in Exodus 18:5, Dueteronomy 7:6, 14:2, 26:18, and Malachi 3:17.

Edited by user Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:55:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Richard  
#4 Posted : Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:44:08 AM(UTC)
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Great stuff, Walt! Thank you!
Offline Walt  
#5 Posted : Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:37:21 PM(UTC)
Walt
Joined: 10/26/2008(UTC)
Posts: 374
Man

Matthew wrote:
I like what you're saying Walt. It's definitely an area that requires clarification.

I've been lately watching a lot of material with Nehemiah Gordon, a well known Karaite Jew who has recently been doing a lot of ministry (conferences, videos, co-authoring books) with guys such as Michael Rood (Messianic), Keith Johnson (Methodist/Messianic) and Arthur Bailey (Messianic/Hebrew Roots). Now, with Nehemiah he shamar(s) the Torah but yet rejects Yahshua, whereas Michael & Co also shamar the Torah but yet still refer to Paul and use the word "Lord," i.e. Feasts of the Lord.

Then there's many Yada Yahweh forum members, who reject anything Paul and even call much of the NT "inaccurate" and "not Scripture," yet they too shamar the Torah.

So the conundrum: who will spend eternity with Yahweh?


I don't want to get into a "to Paul or not to Paul" debate
Abba Father tells us to keep His Torah and Miqra’ey, heed the warnings He gives through His Prophets and believe in His Son.
When Yahushua walked the earth, He didn't tells us to obey what His would write or to listen to Paul. He said that our Heavenly Mother would bring things to their remembrance (so THEY could record what happened) Luke and Mark weren't part of that group, and they never claim to be writing under God's authority. Luke clearly tells us he is writing under his own accord.

Yahowah repeatedly and clearly tells us the way to have a relationship with Him and have eternal life, and the "NT" writings are NEVER mentioned.
One can't reasonably assert, after true examination, that the "NT" writings are done in the same revelation, authority, methodology (except John in Revelation - where Yahushua had the opportunity to tell us to listen to Paul & Luke & Mark) of the "OT" writings, where Yahowah makes CLEAR when He is speaking thru the writers

If one wants to try to learn through those writers, they are free to do so
But to try to compel others that they must accept them is on some dangerous ground

Yahowah made it simple
Keep His Torah and Miqra’ey
Accept His Son
And He also calls His people to "come out of her"
MessiYah reinforced what His Father said and added "make disciple" (that's relationships He modeled for us) and be His witnesses (how we live, act and interact)

It's THAT simple, and people just make it more and more complex that it confuses and misdirects people.

Remember, originally Yahowah planned to have the 1st born son to be the Priests - it was to be about FAMILY, not a pastor and his congregation & church. It was Constantine (under his moms wishes) that churches were built.

MessiYah went to the Synagogues to confront the religious leaders - He went to the towns and countryside to reach the people - should it be ANY different today? Remember He was tried and falsely convicted in the temple - it was in a persons house that He had Passover, I think that says A LOT

And for clarity, I'm not addressing you personally Matthew (you too are a seeker trying to discern truth among the sea of voices), but using your post as a launching board to reach all the people that come here and read but don't join or post
Offline RidesWithYah  
#6 Posted : Monday, June 20, 2011 3:46:47 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Walt is absolutely right.
I've been studying Revelation, and found the exact same thing in the Greek.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev 1:3.

"Keep" is "tereo", which means to "guard" or "watch".

Shalom.
Offline Matthew  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:25:16 PM(UTC)
Matthew
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Revelation 1:3 is great, I like it, though it is referring to the prophecy of John (Book of Revelation) and not to the Torah. However, as you did note the other day Mark, Revelation 14:12 speaks volumes:

"Here exists and is present the courageous endurance and steadfastness, active perseverance and heroic resistance of the set-apart and cleansed ones, the ones keeping and retaining, holding onto and clinging to, guarding and observing, obeying and watching over the commands and precepts, orders and charges, regulations and commissions of God*, and the trust and reliance, conviction of the truth and confidence, proof and certainty, dependence and reality of Yahushua*."

Source

For interest sake, here's Stephens's Revelation 1:3

"Blessed and happy, fortunate and good are those who are reading and recognising, acknowledging and knowing this accurately, and those who are hearing and attending to, considering and comprehending, understanding and giving ear to the words and sayings, messages and statements, declarations and thoughts, instructions and teachings, decrees, mandates and matters of the prophecy, the inspired revelation of future events and salvation that is declared publicly and made known in advance, and keeping and guarding, attending to and observing the things written and recorded, carved and engraved, noted down and described in it, for the due measure of time, the fixed and definite time is near and imminent, approaching, in the vicinity and close by, soon to pass."

Source


Offline RidesWithYah  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:59:42 PM(UTC)
RidesWithYah
Joined: 6/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 331

Deuteronomy 4:
5Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Yahweh my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
 6Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
 7For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as Yahweh our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
 8And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
 9Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
 10Specially the day that thou stoodest before Yahweh thy God in Horeb, when Yahweh said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
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