Shalom,

First, let me apologize for starting about 15 different topics in 2 days. I just started reading YY and FH about a week ago, so I'm still in the beggining stages of having everything I thought I knew flipped on it's head, so... yea.

My question is this: Firstly, can anyone who knows of or has personally been to Glory of Zion church (of which Chuck Pierce is the... I guess head apostle) tell me what they think about it? Secondly, can it be trusted?

You see, I just finished my freshman year at UNT and I started going to GofZ while there. At the time, pre-YY and FH, I thought it was a pretty good church (I had a few misgivings but was willing to look the other way because everyone at least appeared to really care about Yahweh), at least better than any church I had ever gone to. And, if nothing else, they were the only church that I had ever gone to which placed ANY emphasis on the Tanakh (that is the "OT" right? Or is it called the Torah?) which made reading YY and FH easier to digest the first time, which is a good thing. The things I have misgivings on are (then): at the end of each service there is almost always some sort of altar call where 90%+ of the congregation is being "slain" in the spirit, a couple of people ALWAYS are making some sort of noise in the "spirit" (which, by the way, is really annoying when your trying to listen to what the preacher is trying to say...). Misgivings I have NOW: They still use "Jesus", "Lord", etc. when refering to YAHUSHUA and YAHWEH (which I think is very strange seeing as Robert Hiedler, who is the main teacher there, seems to know at least Hebrew, and probably Greek too, very well).

Fortunatly, I am not up in Denton for the summer, but am back home, where I have ample time away from all of them, whether they are right or wrong, to consult Yahweh, His Scriptures, and YY and FH (and I'll hopefully be getting into TOM here shortly too) about this. And again, I am not saying they are wrong or anything, as there are people there I dearly love, and who I think are really searching for the truth of Yahweh, but I just want to know the Truth. Thanks.

We're all stuck between a rock and a hard place, Robert. The first reality is that nowhere (at least that I've heard of) is there a "perfect" congregation, or pastor, or group of believers who all use the "right" vocabulary, understand absolutely everything about the scriptures, and are in perfect harmony with Yahweh's Spirit. Such a place doesn't exist on this planet, and if it did, we'd screw it up by inserting our own imperfect presence into such an august gathering if we started attending. But the converse reality is that Yahweh wants us to congregate anyway, assembling together to honor Him, pulling together in good works, exhorting, encouraging, and praying for one another---and doing so ever more faithfully as we perceive that the Day of Yahshua's return is drawing near. The forum is one way of doing that, but if we just sit here at our computer terminals and refuse to interact with people in our local neighborhoods because they don't already "get it," we not only cheat ourselves, we're cheating them.

Does Yahweh know the ekklesia is flawed---populated by people who are shallow, stubborn, tradition bound, sinful, and stupid? Of course He does. Just go back and read the letters to the seven assemblies in Revelation 2 and 3. Does he tell them to stop meeting together? No. He tells them (in order) to repent, be courageous, repent (again), hold fast to whatever truth you possess, hold fast and repent (again), hold fast (again), and finally, repent (again). So here's my provocative question: how are they supposed to know what to hold fast to and what to repent from if everybody who's studied, prayed, and made themselves open to the leading of Yahweh's Spirit has left and refuses to come back? We're supposed to be salt and light, not absent without leave. Doctors don't refuse to go to the hospital just because there are sick people there.

Don't misunderstand me, please. I'm not advocating showing up, swallowing hard, and accepting errant doctrine and mindless tradition in the misguided quest for "Christian unity." I'm advocating something much harder: show up (even on the wrong day, if you have to) and be the voice and testimony of Yahweh's truth---shed light on the situation; impart information; pray for your less well-educated brothers and sisters; show them (gently) where they've got things backward. Ask pointed questions. Love people. Meet needs. Prepare yourself with reasoned answers for your "strange" behavior. Some congregations, if approached this way, will eventually tire of having coals of fire poured onto their heads (in love), and ask you to leave, as Robski's did. If that happens, shake the dust off your feet and move on. On the other hand, some congregations (like mine) will take the Berean approach, and thoughtfully consider your Spiritual excentricities. After ten years, my pastor (who's twenty-five years younger than I am) has learned to trust my odd take on things, because every time I've challenged him on something (always in love) he's been unable to prove me wrong---even when I freak him out with stuff he's never heard before, anywhere. You may live in a locale where there's nothing to work with, but I doubt it. I live in central Virginia---sparsely populated, rural, and tradition bound---and I got blessed. Okay, my friends there will never get the vocabulary right. I've come to terms with that. But (and this is perhaps a good indicator of how lost a congregation is) they don't condemn me for trying to get it right, either. It's a start. Give me another fifteen years, and I'll have 'em calling "Jesus" Yahshua. Maybe :-)

kp

Thank you all for the wise replies. KP, you said:

"...but if we just sit here at our computer terminals and refuse to interact with people in our local neighborhoods because they don't already "get it," we not only cheat ourselves, we're cheating them."

And thats exactly right. How will anyone else know the truth if those who already know it refuse to help? If we all just walk away? The world's going to have a hard enough time after the Harpazzo, we might as well try to make that harvesting too big for people not to notice while we can still do something about it! So, I guess I am staying until I'm forcibly removed from the premises... :) Or maybe a LITTLE before that...

One thing that is still bothering me though, is going on sundays to the church itself. I want to help the people, yes, but I don't want to support the church establishments almost 2,000 year old blasphemy... I have lived too long as a hypocrite to want to go down that road again, because all it leads to is death, or worse...

But then again, I think when Yahweh said that He is not willing that any should perish, and when Yahshua said to go to the ends of the earth, I think even church on sunday is included. I dunno.

So the Disciples gathering on the first day of the week was in disobedience to Yahweh, or is it one of those "it depends" answers?

Whoa! That is really important!

Brother Walt, can you walk us through that, step by step.

I have to take it back to a pastor friend of mine and don't want to miss any steps.

Check out these parallel translations of the CJB verses NIV!

This is the 'smoking gun' I have been looking for!

On Chuck Pierce seems even some Christian label his teaching heretical:
http://www.deceptionbytes.com/taxonomy/term/36

Having come out of charismatic circles, I now see much of it just new age spirtism repackaged in biblical terms. Also this "new global church" stuff really smacks of the end time lawless deception. His buddy Rick Joyner was given Knight of Malta status. Prayer walking, etc how does that differ from shamans. Urghh.

Plus I understand this guy has given many "prophesies" that have failed to pass.

Also don't see why they couldn't meet the first day of the week, especially if they had work to do.
Irregardless it's awful how some twist this to mean 1st day is now sabbath.

well, Acts says they met day-to-day
But they didn't meet specifically on the 1st day of the week

How about other examples..and to the extreme:
Daniel amidst astrologers, magicians, soothsayers and even promoted to leader. Joseph being 2nd to Pharoah in pagan Mitsryim, and we could find many other examples of those called out to be light in the midst of darkness.

While I couldn't attend an institutional church at present, and even previously struggled and left a "home church" setting, I shouldn't play YaH and second guess anothers motives and calling. While many who go to ICs like their religion spoon fed and enjoy the social club, there is sometimes remnants who truly seek and would follow YHWH no matter what, even ultimately reject the traditions of men and replace it with YHWHs truth. I suppose most in this forum, myself included come from that background. I just know I currently lack the patience and gentleness and strength in his Word to be a light in any IC setting.

Note in Revelation and the letters to the 7 called out assemblies, that there are corruptions in most, but also mention of some in them who hadn't soiled themselves and willing to be refined (not a total absense of them). Also note the context of it being future - the Day of YHWH/2nd coming of Messiah:
Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the First and the Last,” and, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven assemblies of Asia – to Ephesos, and to Smurna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodikeia.”

Yes, but there is a large difference here. Daniel I doubt attended the "Church" of the Babylonian and Persian false gods. And I doubt Joseph hung out at the church of Ra and Horus.

And CG, don't get me wrong, I am a former church attender myself. But I would not set foot back in a christian church if someone paid me, as I see it no different then going to the temple of Zeus, no matter how well meaning some of the people there are.

As for the 7 Assemblies..........guys those people were not christians and not involved in christian churches.

And please understand I am not attacking anyone or anything, I just do not understand your viewpoint, and if we do not agree.....that is ok!

I was just trying to understand, but personally I too don't set foot in ICs except for relatives/freinds weddings & funerals.

I went to a summer bluegrass event in a small town nearby with a freind, thinking it was in town Park and instead was at a church outdoors on thier lawn. I know the "temple of Zeus" feeling even when I walked in thier gymnasium (was somewhat ironic that not a single song the band played was "gospel bluegrass" :^)

I still pick, hunt with many christian freinds and certainly have took a stand, and man, talk about YaHushua's words being true "I did not come to bring peace but division..." with my very Christian family (parents, siblings). Sometimes my approach way too harsh, but with most it's almost impossible even with a gentle approach to not get a very heated response. That "strong delusion" is really apparent.

I do regularly attend a great fellowship in someones home, and was so happy to find them. Is it perfect? No, we are all growing. With my brothers taking the "Lew White" Exodus 23:13 way too rigid (can't say east, chronology, days of week, some months, and lots of other no-no words, and do opposite of any pagan thing) it gets tedious at time, but I try to watch my vocabulary so I don't offend them. The fellowship and growth far outweighs the negatives they or I have.

I can't say I disagree with a single thing you said. I've struggled thru the pain of discovering flat out lies, and now when I study his Word in a new light it's so obvious and can't believe I had ever allowed myself to be decieved for so long. The disharmony, complex convoluted work arounds and downright ignoring tons of Scripture with the christian mindset fits the "strong delusion" and "mystery of lawlessness".

But I'm tired of being pissed off at christianity (and christians) and want to move on. Especially about loving my neighbor. I want the whole christian past to be mainly irrelevant (not angry at it) and move on. Also the love part of sharing and gentleness, remembering that I didn't come out of it all once, and have no way arrived yet.