MadDog, I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that it is okay to work on the Sabbath because it makes me feel good, I was saying that I don't consider that work. What we have is a disagreement over what is considered work and what isn't.

My point of turning it into a burden was predicated upon my experience with Jewish friends, who follow a strict rabbinical law that does turn it into a burden, i.e. not being able to turn on a light switch, not being able to cook, not being able to drive or travel more than a short distance etc.

But still the question is what is considered work, me and you have different ideas of what is considered work, and everyone has different views on the matter. Some would say that cooking on the Sabbath is not to be done because it is work, I personally don't consider cooking working, you might I don't know.

What's important is that we all understand the message of the Sabbath, that we can't work for our salvation, which is why Yah used the word mala’kah. What is interesting, at least to me, is that in the first part Yah uses 'abad and mala'kah, when saying that for six days we will 'abad and mala'kah, but when it comes to what not do only mala'kah is used, 'abad which is labor and service is not prohibited, only mala'kah is. This to me says that not all 'abad is mala'kah.

What I think is important is to realize there is a broad range of agreement. We agree when it is....not to work at our occupation...not to conduct commerce....and so on. I think the best we can do is observe the sabbath day as we as individuals and families are convicted with the best possible effort not to justify what we know deep down we have misgivings about. There will be a time where it is settled and no one will have any questions. As for me....I am convinced towards what could be called strict observance of the day. I know it is a day that is made for man and that is a day made for our delight and joy. And when I say this I know what I must sound like but it is sincere. What is a greater joy than to know God and communicate with Him and learn of His plans and purposes and look into His heart with singular purpose and attention. All these other days we can fix our hearts on work or play for that matter. On that day is it better to play kickball with the family or is it better to sing the tehillim with family or read from the Torah with family. Yes, the shabbat is made made for man but what was it made for? I know it sometimes seems like a labor to make the effort to devote the day entirely to Him and even more so it is hard to settle down...slow down....and chill....but doesn't that say more about us than it does about Him? It is an effort yes.....but in my experience it is an effort that becomes natural, necessary and richly rewarded. Can you teach your children about YHWH with kickball.....I have no doubt....people are creative. I don't know what the answer is. There are shabbats when I would like to go fishing or work in the garden but I am in my heart convinced that the day is not made for these things. That is not to say that others aren't convinced in the opposite direction. Having said that maybe I am liberal when it comes to fellowship. If I am wrong I apologize but it seems some are against attending a fellowship of believers/congregation. I am all for that and in a perfect world where all the YY'ers lived in one big community I would hope that we would have some form of scheduled and structured exultation and fellowship....whether it was in a building made for that purpose or in the more spacious houses on a rotating schedule within the community. If Yahosha was going to the synagogues on the shabbat and reading from haftorah then I can't see anything objectional in that practice. The best thing we can do with issues like this is discuss the matter...be honest and open about it.....and continue on as brothers and sisters in the spirit of love and understanding. It is always a hard call. We aim for truth and scriptual soundness in our practices and it would seem that those purposes demand that we often strike a hard line. But there are times when wish there would have been a little more heart and a little less brain. Once again....balance is what is needed and that is no easy task. Do what you deem to be right through conviction of the scriptures with the realization that there is an absolute standard with the utmost gravity. Go with God...as they say. Then give your brothers the benefit of the doubt...that they have made the decision on how to observe the 7th day with the utmost gravity and with prayer.

Shalom

P.S. As for cooking....a hearty crockpot meal stowed in the fridge till early morning then slow cooked till lunch/dinner is a fine way to avoid cooking at least one meal. We often in this way have a large hot dinner and then in the evening a cold informal supper of cold meats, salads, relishes, cheeses, a veggie or fruit tray with our bread...what have you...in this way both meals can be prepared before the sabbath and prepared and presented with as little fuss as possible. I just offer this as the way we do it. I am not saying that those who cook are to be excommunicated...but I certainly think that it is nice and far from burdensome to do it this way.

Why did you have to share that.


It makes me think differently of Dad :(

It means that this man was warned on multiple times to stop.

Yet he continued.

Apparently he didn't care or disregarded Yahweh's law.

Don't think that this group of Jews were without law.

They had Judges and Juries and Witnesses.

According to the modern English translations it would appear
the Jews just randomly pointed a finger and condemmend a
man to death.

There is more to this story then meets the eye.

MadDog,
I don't really understand why you have written the things you have written about me. Could you not have asked for a clarification first if something did not sit well with you. Because I have to say whether by your haste or by a fault of my writing you have not understood what I have meant. Have we not had enough wrath and discord for one year or a lifetime on this forum? I am a brother. If you have something against me for my own wrath or for my own shortcomings then I apologize. But I have to say I have clearly stated my stance on how to observe and participate in the Shabbat. And I can't see how my position is any different than yours other than the fact that you have reasons to assert that it is best to not leave your house during shabbat. I believe that given the right reasons it is fitting and right to leave your house....Especially as it pertains to fellowship in a congregation. If I have misunderstood your position I apologize. I have not said to do what is contrary to the Torah and the example of our Messiah. In fact...just the opposite. NOt just in this specific post...but even in my other most recent post..... I think most of the older members know enough about me and the evidence of my writing to affirm that I am not just passionate about "observing" the torah in the spiritual sense and by mere understanding and appreciation...but also practical application. I was the one who started the post "living out the Torah" I would never deliberately enull or destroy Torah in any sense. I would never claim to resort to a self originating arbitrary and subjective standard of right and wrong as you implied I did in the response to the second quote of my writing. I did not say do what feels right with no basis in what is sound and solid. I specifically said that you must not try to justify license for behavior that is incongrous with scripture....that you cannot twist the Tanakh or the writings for your own purposes. The Torah must be your foundation...your first and last resource. I did not advocate housework or garden work or even leisure activities in fact I rejected them in favor of things like reading and reflecting on Torah/haftorah and singing tehillim. I have tried to share a solution for cooking meals with my brothers and sisters that might be agreeable to all parties. What do you advocate? Perhaps fasting? If you want to be honest and open as I clearly stated we should all be....I believe that that suggestion is not in harmony with either the spirit or the practical carrying out of Torah. This is the millenial harbinger we are talking about. The time of joy and celebration of plenty and health. I can see no evidence that we should fast...and in fact are missing out on the breadth and depth of the Torah if we do. Some would go so far as to state it is violation. So I disagree with you. I am not going to be sarcastic and tell you that your writing is rubbish or gibberish and bandy about Paul like some sort of club to beat you over the head with. What you have done....you have in my opinion offered several opinions that I contend are contrary to the spirit and the flesh of Torah. I would not and did not castigate you or insult you. I disagree and I have tried to state my reasons why with love and understanding...sometimes not even mentioning the disagreement but rather offering solutions to the issue with the hope they would bring focus to the issue. Can you say you have done the same? I said we should openly discuss our differences and our reasons. We should be honest. But why must we fly off the handle in what must be construed as a deliberate effort to alienate and embarrass our brothers and sisters. I have to be honest and also say that you were a little harsh and quick to judgement about what I was referring to. I was not merely writing only about the specific and obvious examples that have been in discussion but also a more general treatment of the whole of sabbath ordinance. Whether we like to admit it or not there are examples that are not as clear cut as the issues of work or commerce. There is a great variance of opinion within the torah community...how stringent or how lenient one can be in the observance of a Torah compliant shabbat. Why would these issues not arise here in this community? Do you use electricity during the shabbat...some with good reason and with a plain and strict reading of the text would say that that is not in line with Torah observance.....for several reasons That list goes on and on. It is not just the obvious issues that we must concern ourselves with. We should and must discuss them but we must also understand that in some areas we are not going to come to an agreement. I am not willing to insult or berate my brothers and sisters over these issues and I am not going to cut off fellowship with them and YES I am going to carry on with them in the spirit of love and understanding...giving them the benefit of the doubt...that they indeed have made these decisions on how to observe the 7th day with the utmost gravity and prayer. For my part in perpetuating this Paulian discord that to this day even has the capability to divide those who are in agreement about the issue....I am truly sorry...all I can do is ask forgiveness. It seems to be this curse that he comes up even where he doesn't belong and in issues that he has no reason to disturb or weigh in on. Is it not bad enough when outsiders come here to abuse us and think that they are going to teach us a lesson...that we must also abuse each other in an atmosphere of paranoia...to think fo worst of each other....in essence to shoot first and ask questions later....have we learned nothing from our own recent troubles and from the outsiders who would strive to make us miserable?

Shalom

Mar 2:23 And it came to be that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And as they went His taught ones began to pluck heads of grain,
Mar 2:24 and the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not right on the Sabbath?”
Mar 2:25 And He said to them, “Have you never read what Dawiḏ did when he had need and was hungry, he and those with him?
Mar 2:26 “How he went into the House of Elohim, while Eḇyathar was high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not right to eat, except for the priests, and he gave it also to those who were with him?”
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 “So the Son of Aḏam is also Master of the Sabbath.”1 Footnote: 1Mt. 12:8.
Mar 3:1 And He went into the congregation again, and a man who had a withered hand was there.
Mar 3:2 And they were watching Him, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so as to accuse Him.
Mar 3:3 And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Get up to the middle.”
Mar 3:4 And He said to them, “Is it right to do good on the Sabbath, or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.
Mar 3:5 And having looked around on them with displeasure, being grieved at the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as healthy as the other.
Mar 3:6 And the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how to destroy Him.

Joh 5:8 יהושע said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.”
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man became well, and he took up his bed and was walking. Now it was Sabbath on that day.
Joh 5:10 The Yehuḏim therefore said to him who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, it is not right for you to take up the bed.”
Joh 5:11 He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”
Joh 5:12 Therefore they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?”
Joh 5:13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for יהושע had moved away, a crowd being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward יהושע found him in the Set-apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more,1 so that no worse matter befalls you.” Footnote: 1See 8:11.
Joh 5:15 The man went away, and told the Yehuḏim that it was יהושע who made him well.
Joh 5:16 And because of this the Yehuḏim persecuted יהושע, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these healings on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But יהושע answered them, “My Father works until now, and I work.”
Joh 5:18 Because of this, then, the Yehuḏim were seeking all the more to kill Him, ‘because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He also called Elohim His own Father, making Himself equal with Elohim.’

Joh 7:19 “Did not Mosheh give you the Torah? Yet not one of you does the Torah!1 Why do you seek to kill Me?” Footnote: 1See Mt. 5:20.
Joh 7:20 The crowd answered and said, “You have a demon, who seeks to kill You?”
Joh 7:21 יהושע answered and said to them, “I did one work, and you all marvel.
Joh 7:22 “Because of this Mosheh has given you the circumcision – though it is not from Mosheh, but from the fathers – and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
Joh 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the Torah of Mosheh should not be broken, are you wroth with Me because I made a man entirely well on the Sabbath?
Joh 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Joh 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath when יהושע made the clay and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
Joh 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from Elohim, because He does not guard the Sabbath.” Others said, “How is a man who is a sinner able to do such miracles?” And there was a division among them.....
Joh 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a wonder! You do not know where He is from, yet He opened my eyes!
Joh 9:31 “And we know that Elohim does not hear sinners. But if anyone fears Elohim and does His desire, He hears him.
Joh 9:32 “From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind.
Joh 9:33 “If this One were not from Elohim, He could have done none at all.”
Joh 9:34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins – and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out.

Well said James.
This forum is also important to me as I am currently experiencing the shunning by all my religious christian friends because they think I am in a cult. The one thing they won't do, however, is refute any of what I say in any informed way. But we feel a bit alone, and this forum is about the only place we can go right now.

Really? Where is it recorded that the offender was warned multiple times not to gather sticks?

I hear you. Been accused of all sorts of things: torah cult, legalism, and shunned without even trying to be abrasive. Just try my best to "love my brother" by correcting error as we're commanded, but usually turns ugly as they can't refute, reject the message and attack the messenger. Especially religious merchants who have the most to loose. Strong delusion. Well at least they don't torture and murder "heretics" here like the church did by the millions in the past (including Natsarim <Nazarene>). Seems if the world most popular religion shuns you you're likely on the narrow and unpopular path.

Luk 6:22 “Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall cut you off, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as wicked, for the sake of the Son of Aḏam.
Luk 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for look, your reward is great in the heaven, for that is how their fathers treated the prophets.

I started to come out of 38 years of Xtianity about a year ago, felt tremendous peace on that "lone prarie", but still missed fellowship. Then about 6 months ago thru "amazing coincidence" found a small home fellowship closeby I regularly attend.
I'm into bluegrass (guitar) and love the summer festivals, but had took a stand with freinds that I could not, will not, attend GospelGrass this year. Lo and behold one in my fellowship was walking thru his neighborhood and ran into one of my Xtian freinds who let him have a email distribution list of pickers to invite to
http://www.besorahgrass.com/

I was one of them...

I love BlueGrass. Still listen to it whenever I can. Even got to hear some of it live from time to time when we lived in Knoxville, TN.

I used to play guitar, just finger-picking chords and such. Never could master a Barre chord and gave up in frustration. I still have a relatively nice, inexpensive Fender acoustic, but I no longer even try to play. I get too sad at my inability to produce the sounds I want to. That's why my web site only has the lyrics to my songs and not the songs themselves.

I am jealous of you. :(

Richard

I take what I said back earlier. The man would have been warned multiple times, unless he was the equivalent of the
Torah's "bubble boy" or he lived in a secluded cave somewhere and just happened to miss the parting of the Red Sea,
Mount Horeb and Yahweh's ten sayings, the valley by the river Jordan where the entire Israeli nation finally made
the covenant in front of Moshe.

Not to mention having to hear and recite the Torah whenever they would go to the synagogue and upon Yahweh's
seven feasts. There were warnings every where.

It reminds me of the story of the male child of the Jewish woman and Egyptian husband who was also put to death
for blaspheming Yahweh and Noah's youngest son looking upon Noah's nakedness when he was passed out drunk.

My guess since we don't have the details is that there was something more going on then just "looking upon,"
"blaspheming," and "picking up sticks." Also Moshe issued the death sentence upon Yahweh's authority. Moshe
the guy who stood up to Yahweh to keep him from destroying Israel at Mt Horeb. Moshe who time and time again
pleaded for Yahweh to spare Israel. I really doubt Moshe would be so shallow and callous to put a man to death
for just picking up sticks.

My speculation is that this man didn't consider it work, just like James doesn't consider repainting his house
on the Sabbath to be work. He probably stood his ground that he wasn't doing anything wrong and maybe even tried to
convince others to do the same. He probably vowed to continue, despite of what should have been obvious that he was in
deep, deep trouble and having the opportunity to offer a sin offering and be made right. Again, my speculation.

Well it is tragic on so many levels on what happened with this man picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

I mean can you imagine the great opportunity here to stand in front of Yahweh, Moshe and Aaron. The big dogs
(no disrespect whatsoever).

Especially Yahweh, can you place yourself in Yahweh's shoes or sandals or whatever it was they wore in those
days, contemplating judgment on this schmuck whose big beef against the BIG GUY was that he wanted to
prove Yahweh wrong about the Sabbath. And not just about the Sabbath, but about his ability to gather sticks
on the Sabbath.

If you are going to go up against the BIG GUY himself and be condemned by him, you might as well make it worthwhile.

Murder, rape, stealing; pretty much all the niceties that Mohammed did.

But for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.......COME ON MAN :(

Methinks this man was so full of pride that he stuck to his guns and forfeited his life.

Edited by user Friday, December 17, 2010 1:08:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think with the computer it depends on if you are using it for your normal work business or not. I mean you could split hairs and say ok so I am making someone work someplace by using the internet or turning on the light switch or any electrical product we have. I mean someone is on the clock someplace watching the grids and keeping it going. But its almost ridiculous to think Yahuwah wants us to sit in a dark room and not move or interact with anyone or anything and that is kinda where that is leading. I feel as long as you dont cause others to do any work or spend money or do your business in which you make a living or money on the Sabbath then you are good. I try to just not interact with the regular world you know. Just take it easy and enjoy my family and laugh and forget about the daily grind.

Physical death is simply a transition.
Yah's children die physically every day, as part of His plan.
It's a normal part of the process.
Some of these deaths are used to teach others.
Read John 11. When Yahshua learned Lazarus was sick, He let him die.
Stayed where He was 2 days, rather than going and healing him.
(Or healing him remotely, as he did with the centurion's son.)

I'm not saying that was this case with this fellow, or even probable, just that it's possible.

I really hate to belabor this debate but I am pretty sure that we all know that we are mortal and will die someday. That's not the point I'm trying to make. If you or I were to die in an earthquake it doesn't mean it was Yahweh's will, it just means we died in a earthquake.

From what I've gathered from reading YY is that there are times when Yahweh personally intervenes in men's affairs (and without a doubt we'll know when he does) and other times when for lack of a better term "nature" happens. We die for many reasons, sickness, war, famine, etc. that isn't tied to Yahweh at all.



So if Yahweh has a "master plan" then I need not worry. No matter what I do or say, Yahweh has already judged and I need not worry about being just or unjust.
If Yahweh was manipulating every gush of wind, every blade of grass, etc. then we would be without "free will." Yahweh does intervene when it's dire and more obviously whenever he wants.

Anyway, to your point Lazarus did die again didn't he? Yashua intervened yes, but Lazarus did eventually die again.

As for the guy picking up sticks on the sabbath, methinks you are giving him too much credit. In my mind I see a rare glimpse into Yahweh, both to be feared and respected.



Before all the "God is Love" hippy types get up in a uproar, let's not forget that Yahweh did do far worse (from our perspective) with the flood of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah. He killed hundreds of thousands if not millions. Men, women and babies.

I know this is going to sound bad, but we can't just leave it all up to Yahweh.

The way you explained this is awesome, and in it I've seen where I could do much better. My wife is not really on board with all this, although cooks clean, etc out of love for me. Keeping up the house, laundry,cooking, being hers to a greater portion was "fair", since she works part time and I full time, but the time Sabbath comes around things are backed up and she just can't rest with so much needing to be done. I'm going to make a greater effort to help with having the house clean, some meals ready, etc in time for Sabbath. When asked she confirmed she would rest, if that happened.

This topic prompted me to wonder whether the Hebrews were forced by the Egyptians to work on the Sabbath before the Exodus? I realize I could look for the answer myself but I figured I may as well ask as one of you surely already knows the answer. (I still have a lot of studying to do).

That said, I would like to thank everyone who posts to this forum. I don't often participate since I don't have much to contribute - at least not in comparison to most of you who post here. I mostly just have questions but I don’t feel it’s fair to always ask and bother with someone else’s time when I’m perfectly capable of doing my own homework. So, I would like to extend my gratitude because I learn much from you and it comforts me to know that people like you actually do exist somewhere out there in the midst of all the confusion. I am so grateful for Yada and KP, what they have written and made available, and for all of you who discuss. I learn a lot from all of you and it's nice to visit a site where people are having thoughtful discussion and debate without attacking and assaulting one another.