I have found as of late that one of the biggest stumbling blocks that has been put up to keep people from questioning their faith in religion is deceased loved ones.

So many people I have talked to struggle with this more than anything else. They don't want to question their faith, because they are afraid they are wrong, and if they are wrong, then what about aunt so and so, or my grandmother who was such a sweet and lovely person. Because they are afraid to admit that someone they loved and cared about, might no be in heaven with them they aren't willing to even question. So you can present them with all the facts and proof, but they are not willing to process it because of that consequence.

We really have no answer we can give, we don't know the fate of those who have died, that is between them and Yah, but people want an assurance that their loved ones are safe. Until someone is willing to accept the fact that some of the people they have cared about have died apart from Yahuweh, the are not going to be willing to question anything.

This seems to me to be especially prevalent in Christianity which is very insular, and stresses the afterlife. Many Christians do not have close relationships with non Christians, so they have never had to question rather someone one they care about will be in heaven, they assume they all will be. I would say it is part of the reason that so many don't have close friends who are not Christian, they don't want to have to worry about it.

I think this may be why the Truth is easier for people who come from an agnostic, atheist position to accept. Myself coming from an agnostic view, have no issue with it. I come from a view that death was likely the end, so when people I loved and cared for passed away I thought they live on in my memories and that is all I can hope for. So since I have never loved or cared for anyone who would be headed for door number 2, the abyss, nothing has changed for me.

Someone coming from the Christian view, must first come to grips in their own way with this. They are left with only a handful of options, not one of which is very easy to accept emotionally. They can come to the conclusion that their loved ones lived a good life, and that was all. Or they can decide that they probably knew God and all will be okay, but never have the assurance that they did, Or they can come to the conclusion that it is out of their hands, and hope for the best. None of these are easy options for someone who is coming from a place of assurance that these loved ones will be in heaven.

Any ways, this was just something on my mind today, and I thought I would share.

thread died for some reason, let's see if a post brings it back.

James - I think you're spot on. I'm sure that my friends who have lost family members cling to the security that their loved one is happy in heaven so their early death wasn't wasted. Recently a humanist friend of mine died and it was really refreshing going to a funeral which was honest and real - no false hope - just a simple celebration of a life now ended.

I think when talking to Christians we have to try and draw the conversation away from the afterlife as much as we can - those questions will inevitably come up at some point but will be less of a stumbling block once other bits of the puzzle are in place. When people have asked me whether i think they'll "get in" I've been honest and said i don't know and that's really the best we can offer them.

James, I think we've talked about this a few times. I definitely struggled with my dad's fate after reading through Yada Yahweh. I think you will probably remember me crying at points during our studies. I am just now to the point where I can accept that I don't know and that I don't have to know. All that we can do is work on our relationship with Yahuweh and trying to share that with our loved ones that are still among us. The potential exists for us to make a difference in their lives where as we can not influence the dead. Their fate is already sealed. I see my Mom struggling with the same thing and while she seems to understand, she doesn't want to lose that comfort of knowing she will see my father again. It is definitely a hard thing to deal with but it is so worth it.

Yup. Yahshua taught along this same theme:

Lazarus and the rich man

What we will know...we will know.

Who is judged and how they are judged is 100% up to Yahweh, is it not?

So, I cannot worry of loved ones that have passed. Yes, I loved them dearly, but ...

It is Yahweh's call..not ours. What is it? The people of the cults tell us to know that we can 'talk' to our loved ones and/or...they are 'watching over us'...etc, etc, etc...

Well, that's not what we are told by Yah. They are sleeping. Let them sleep and worry about things that matter....like...understanding His Word? maybe?
And if he 'wakes' them and they are 'awaken' to the truth, so be it......
but, things of this matter seem so silly to me to try and discuss.
Maybe I'm just the dummy here on this 'board'.....I know, I know...

Talk to Yah about friends and family. Stand for them? What can it hurt?

I love people and am thankful for everyone I've ever met. People are hilarious and silly and brilliant. Let Yahweh work it out....uh, oh...well, that's kind of happening already, isn't it?

This whole concept is so far over my head that I'm leaving it up to Yah...and with that, I'm at peace with who I love so deeply, who I've lost....it's okay. It's Okay. Yahweh Knows and he's not going to screw it up. lol.. That's good enough for me.

Hey Bridget, I love your post, very good and you are certainly no dummy - very wise words indeed :)

bigritchie-
I'm not so sure there will be much distinction given towards those who had access to the information, but were too lazy or stubborn to examine it and those who, through human deception, were kept in the dark. That's why death of the soul is extremely just. They were just animals at that point. They didn't (or couldn't) accept the free gift of Yahweh's spirit to restore their soul and live eternally.

There's been lots of talk on here about how wrong can you be and still have a relationship. We simply don't know because Yahweh doesn't tell us. Can those who have been calling him by the wrong names (or celebrating pagan festivals) still form a relationship with him? I sure felt like I had some kind of relationship with Him all my life. That doesn't mean I did, mind you, but, for what it's worth, I "felt" close to Him. Since reading FH and YY (or starting to, still not done yet), I have definitely gotten much closer to Him. If I had died prior to that, would I have known Yahweh enough to be worth a look? I don't know; maybe. Like others have said, it's in Yahweh's hands, and I can't think of better hands that that decision could be in.

I'll through out another thought to ponder. What behavior is worthy of eternal torment? It's not as easy as Christians tend to put it: just not believing, or not "accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior." No, that would be sadistic. Killing someone is certainly bad, but worth eternal torment? Maybe. What about leading people who would otherwise come to know Yahweh away from Him, taking away or obscuring the path to Him so badly that it becomes nearly unrecognizable? That's not just killing their body; that's killing their soul. Away from Yahweh, the source of life, one cannot live. With so many victims (billions led astray, just by Islam and Catholicism), what, aside from eternal punishment, is just?

That said, I'm more optimistic than Yada when it comes to actual numbers. He seems fixated on total saved being on the order of thousands. I haven't looked into the wording of the commandment that he's getting that from real closely, but it certainly doesn't mesh with Revelation's numbers. There's 144,000 just in the Tribulation martyrs and Yahuchannon (sp?) reports a multitude beyond numbers before the throne (just after being able to count 144,000). I think trust and reliance plays a much bigger role than calling Him by name. Don't get me wrong, finding out His name was that important was one of the biggest blessings in my life. But, think of the Smyrna ekklesia. The current versions in the middle east, China, etc probably don't know His name, but I'm sure they trust and rely on Him a heck of a lot more than most of us in the western world that don't have the threat of death hanging over us at every moment.

I am speaking more of the people who were kept in the Dark by those evil men and the religious systems. During the dark ages they did not have the internet, nor did the have the Scriptures like we do today. Or those people who never heard of the Torah in their entire lives that live in the deep jungle.

I just think Yah will take those things into account. I do not think Yah would say to that Pygmy "You never kept Sukkot, DIE"! Know what I mean? (and once again this is my very humble opinion) Or would he eternally destroy the Catholic in the middle ages that did not have access to the truth as we do today? Do not get me wrong, I am not saying I know the answer here or that I would presume to think how he would judge, these are just questions I ponder especially now having left Babylon. And do not get me wrong, I love the Feast of Sukkot and look forward to keeping it every year. It is just my brain having theological ramblings I recon.

As far as the works question I would add. (And by works I am speaking of walking in the Paths of YHWH)

Yeremiyahu 17:10 “I, יהוה, search the heart, I try the kidneys, and give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

Proverbs 24:12 “If you say, “See, we did not know this,” Would not He who weighs the hearts discern it? He who watches over your life, Would He not know it? And shall He not repay man according to his work?

Mat 16:27 “For the Son of Adam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.

Romans 2:6-8 “who “shall render to each one according to his works”: everlasting life to those who by persistence in good work seek for esteem, and respect, and incorruptibility; but wrath and displeasure to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness.”

Revelation 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.”

I have to say I kinda agree with both of you - but the main thought is, it's not our place really... if it's already dead we can't do anything anyway and Yah will sort it out, He is perfect in everything. Trying to figure out something with this many variables with man's fallen brain isn't a worthy use of our time really. We have to deal with what we do know though - which is to walk in Yah's way, get to know Him and declare the Truth. That is all we know really - Yah handles the rest, and to be honest I am pretty glad about that!

Very interesting thread, I lost my mother when I was 10 and as a boy I was angry and didnt know how to deal with it but time (and a bunch of marijuana-ask if you want to know) seems to fix these things. I am sure she will be fine. I will do some researching on this and get back to you guys on what I think happens.
But to be honest, I dont think that dead loved ones are the biggest problem facing folks when it comes to doubting their religion or teachings. In my experience with christians, it is giving up all the holidays and explaining to their friends what they have found and basically changing the things they enjoyed growing up. They always envision big christmas dinners with family and friends/relatives. I think holidays and peer pressure are their biggest road blocks in my experience anyway.

Edited by user Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:40:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

To me what's worse is when you have a conversation with them, and they will sit there and agree with every point you make, and then just ignore them all in coming up with their conclusion. It's like walking some one through, they agree 1+1=2 and 2+1=3 and 3+1=4, but then turn around and say 1+1+1+1=10 not 4. When someone just give ignorant responses and shows no interest I just walk away and dust off my hands, but when they are intelligent and follow all the logic, but come to some illogical conclusion, it drives me nuts.

Welcome to the forum knowing, great post.

Thank you, Knowing1, for sharing your hearts with us.

They're terrified at the thought. So indoctrinated are their hearts and their emotions they do not even realize when discussing His personal and proper name, they confuse the issue and conclude I am asking them to change Gods. They run in fear sometimes. They burden me with containing the spirit of the Anti-Christ for not believing in Paul, never seeing their own reaction to be anything but scriptural (it is not Paul that saves, but Yahushuah). Upon discovering that I practice the Feasts, I am endeared to hear the same tired rhetoric: "Carnal minded." They've no idea, no concept and have no faith in anything but what they hear from others. Shaytan fine tunes himself with sufficient power to lock in their emotions to an 'experience' in hopes they'll hinge everything on that false doctrine (The Lie in scripture).

I am blessed to stumble upon this fruitful endeavor of Yada's. I neither believe he contains all the answers through his studies, nor suggest anyone else believe such. The most sane, sober-minded and reasonable assertions stem from his theses, however. So well does he, in fact, many rotten sects and ill-gained attention draws to alleged prophets and prophetesses having read his work. I wonder if they ever consider the Old Covenant laws regarding those who claim prophet-hood? Even I, a layperson, in the realm of Yahushuah's essence can determine what Yada has done is what we all should do - our own homework. Even the uneducated can gather the truths. For I have often ascertained that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should and must be consistent with his affairs, decrees and personality if He, truly, were an omnipotent and omniscient God. He was. He is and He always will be. In fact, Scripture confirms this, doesn't it? But the pulpits in many churches clearly state otherwise (thanks to Constantine and Marcion). Yada's theses did not draw this conclusion for me, it merely confirmed what I already knew; sort of drew it out.

If Yahweh is omniscient then why would he change his name? More importantly, why would He need to replace himself with "Jesus"? Why would the decrees he put forth for the early Israelites become corrupt? Man becoming corrupt I could fathom, but an omniscient God making mistakes of such magnitude that those very decrees are now accursed? Is the creator not completely perfect? This I asked when I was a Muslim, too. It made sense then, and it still makes sense when applied to Christianity. Yet, those Christians out there are very strange, indeed. I desired sobriety in Yahweh, peace of mind through Yahushuah and a stability in my "religion". With my new found belief in Yahushuah; whom I then called Jesus, I set about searching for the one true church. I scrubbed their behaviors, attitudes and words with those in Scripture and found all of them wanting of a linear consistency. Meanwhile, I sought to further discredit my old religion: Islam. By reading Prophet of Doom, what once perplexed me about my own understand of Islam became crystal clear. I never was taught the true prophet of Islam and held an emotional bias toward him - a trait very common for "religious" persons. Indeed, I had read bits and pieces but not viewed the entire puzzle. Yet, by shining the light on one religion the light begins to shine on all religions. The Ruach lead me from beginning until now- all within reason- not some fanatical hooplah that justifies the most erratic behavior or assertions of me obtaining a 'demi god' status. No. That's the Holy Spirit- that thing conjured by Shayton (Satan) himself. I know without a shadow of a doubt those who call upon Jesus Christ are not guaranteed what god answers them. They should be terrified and run out of any religious system as if they are running from hell. I never believe in miracles anyway. I do now! Those in the 'church' don't know the true awesome power of the Mighty One.

Today, I realize this message is not for those who need it, but for those who want it. Most often, believers of the True Path were already looking for it. It was only a nudge that catapulted me over the edge to read his theses and allow it to confirm what I already knew. Conversion to Christianity from Islam is immediately followed with a period of confusion as one must shed loads of indoctrination. "I just wanna be one of your kids." I begged God with deep honesty, so prayerfully one night. Those were the exact words I used. Tired and exhausted of what I now know as "religious system" I was begged God for the truth. Somehow I knew that if I was accepted and one of his children I would be OK and He would bless me. I knew absolutely nada of the Old Testament. In fact, the only thing I knew was the book I had just read- Luke.

"Do my actions please you, my Elohim - my precious Yahweh?" This is my prayer today! He answered my call to 'be one of his kids' and He will answer those who truly seek Him. Today I am, LITERALLY, his child - a Yahoodi. I cried the first time I realized what this word meant; instant repentant humiliation while simultaneously bearing the answer to my deepest longing. Years ago I was taught to hate "Yahoodi". Yahoodi is also the term for Jew in Arabic. It bore a harsh and derogatory meaning. Ironically, it is the answer to my deepest desire - to be one of God's kids.

So, I cannot imagine the difficulty a well ingrained Christian must feel when faced with opposition of their authoritative scripture. I can only understand hating the very thing I wanted to become. My argument with main-stream Christians is simply, "If I never questioned the authority of Scripture, I would still be Muslim, wouldn't I?" or "Islam is wrong. People have erroneously been believing in Islam for 1400 years, haven't they? What makes us so proud we cannot question the authenticity of our own scriptures?" Indeed, we are even warned but religion won't allow us to explore this issue lest we 'fall away'.

Blessings
~bon

I was pleasantly surprised when on her last visit, Mom asked if she could go with me to Sabbath School.
We were watching a chapter from Richard Rives' DVDs, "Time is the Ally of Deceit".
It dealt with worship of Tammuz on December 25th...

On the way home, we had a long talk about what's wrong with "Christmas".
After she left, we continued the discussion by email.
Part of the latest reply...



It's frustrating that she can't see that "what she's been taught" ISN'T from scripture.

A little background -- Dad died of lung cancer 23 years ago, six weeks after doctors first saw the shadow on his x-rays. Mom had surgery for colon cancer earlier this year, and some recent test results were not entirely positive. Don't know yet what we're dealing with, but she's scared. Please pray not for physical healing, but for Yah to open her mind as he did for those gathered after his resurrection, give her understanding, and make her fully His own. His will be done.

In His Love. Shalom.

Why listen to anything he (the pastor) says about Messiyah? He can't even get His name right!


For those of you keeping score at home, most 'pastors' are preaching wrong information about:

1) The Messiyah's birth date.
2) His name
3) Who killed Him
4) The day He was actually killed
5) The instrument of His execution
6) The actual day He came back from the dead
7) The names of His disciples
8) How He would have us conduct ourselves

They cannot even get the most basic historical facts right!

Yet these guys have the arrogance to tell us how we can have a wonderful personal relationship with Him!

BR is obviously making this up, because the "greeters" at WalMart are more than just greeters, they are highly trained "screeners".
They would never let a Jew into WalMart.