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Offline Jim  
#1 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2007 8:35:54 PM(UTC)
Jim
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 57
Man
Location: Central Florida

Ok, I am trying to reconcile the use of the Hebrew words "yare' elohyim" in Ecclesiastes 12:13 as "fear God".
v13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (KJV)

Yada is a pretty hard case about the whole don't fear Him thing because if we are family we don't fear the Father (significantly boiled down) and this verse appears to have a very basic contradiction to that.

At first I think this is the point of the verse. You aren't family unless you come to a point where you "yare' Elohiym" and then "shamar" (obey) his "mitsvah" (commandments). Interesting to note that shamar can mean "to hedge about as with thorns". My mind went right to the ram in the thicket for Abraham and the crown of thorns on Yahushua's head. Follow my thought, Yahushua's head hedged in with thorns, John 1:14 And the Word became flesh..., Eccl 12:13 ...shamar mitsvah (hedge about as with thorns the commandments). Could Eccl 12:13 be a foreshadowing of salvation?

So I went back to the word yare' and checked some other incidences of the word. Yes, it used in areas where fear and terror are used but it is also used to describe the Hebrew midwives' action to Yahweh in saving the lives of Hebrew male children in Exodous 1:17 (in fact mentioned twice). Now what induced this into the midwives? Was it real fear or worse terror? Were these Hebrew women instructed in the knowledge of Yahuweh somehow when, at best, they had a vague understanding. There were no commandments at that point, no Moshe. Did they know something was different in the people of Yahuweh so "feared" Him?

Maybe, the word yare' is closer to our concept of loyalty and then actually more indicative of faith (pistos) in its usage here. Four words down the lexicon is the name Yir'iyayh (Irijah) which the lexicon says means "Yahuweh sees me". Since the roots of the name are yare' and yah, why the descrepancy in the translation of the name? Hmm. By the way, I couldn't find another Hebrew word for the concept of loyalty except "checed" and then only loosely referring to deeds of loyalty or kindness.

The last word of the verse is "adam". The word for man or mankind (typically). Oh-oh.

Could this verse really read, "Hear intelligently (shama') the end (cowph) of the matter (dabar), be loyal (yare') to Elohiym who hedges about, as with thorns (shamar), the commandments (mitsvah) as man (adam)."

At first glance, I believe I am pushing outside the bounds of the context for the verse since it is the last verse in Ecclesiates. You should expect a statement of conclusion from Solomon here. However, just like his father David, could Solomon have been stating a direct implication and a Messianic prophecy when writing this?

Jim
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 7:35:21 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I'd agree that yare should consistently be translated "revere" instead of "fear." (Same thing goes for phobeo in the Greek.) In both languages, the word can mean fear, respect, or revere, and in reference to our relationship with Yahweh, "revere" comes closest to the meaning supported by the other descriptions of our ideal relationship in scripture.

That being said, I don't believe we should totally ignore the "fear" connotation of these words. Yada may disagree with me on this, but just because we love Yahweh and He loves us, we shouldn't get lackadaisical or flippant with Him--we should always remain cognizant---even wary---of His awesome power. It's like the old joke: What does an 800 pound gorilla eat for breakfast? Anything He wants. The elders of Israel discovered just how awesome--even terrifying--Yahweh could be when He showed them even a little of His glory (e.g. Exodus 19). When I was a small child, there was never a doubt in my mind that my parents loved me, and yet it was understood that if I disobeyed them, they reserved the right (and had the power) to spank my rebellious little butt. So there was an element of "fear" in that relationship, although I was never given a reason to be afraid of them---I never felt like I had to cringe in their presence or avoid their fellowship. We were a family, but they (representing God) were clearly in charge. It was 20 parts respect plus one part fear, adding up to a relationship of reverence based on love.

kp
Offline Jim  
#3 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 9:06:18 AM(UTC)
Jim
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 57
Man
Location: Central Florida

KP and Swalch,
Thanks so much for the feedback. I am convinced of "revere" (honor and admire profoundly and respectfully, stressing deference and tenderness of feeling [Webster]) here and it fits the context as well. Even for my "rebellious little butt", just ask Jeannie! ;)
Jim
Offline Jeannie  
#4 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 3:00:15 PM(UTC)
Jeannie
Joined: 6/27/2007(UTC)
Posts: 254
Woman
Location: Florida

yep, it was whacked a few times.hehehehe...
Offline shohn  
#5 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2007 4:58:07 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

Well, just to bring my two cents into this.

If we are using analogies to defend the logic another way to think of it may simply be in parental discipline of children as it applies to a person's development in life. I think a child could most certainly be "afraid" of a good swat on the rear end for getting into something they were instructed not to, but still love the parent. Fear of the swat on the rear end by the child would be very real, and not just reverence me thinks.

However, fear of a severe beating from a parent would not be be fear, but rather terror. Is there a different word for terror? I imagine there would be and I think I remember reading that somewhere in YY.

Perhaps this can be related all us by examining the stages of development in our own lives and perhaps that is one big metaphor for Yahuweh's relationship with all of us. We started out as "children" cute and naive in the garden, then went through the terrible twos, at some point went through puberty with nice cracking voices, and to borrow from a famous American author - eventually we'll tell our Dad just how stupid we think he is (perhaps that is where we are at now), until we return to Him and realize just how smart the old man had become in 7 years. At that point we can begin developing a more real relationship based on mutual respect going so far to even respect differences in opinion.

The initial discipline would be for the kids while they may not have a fully developed conscience. The hope of every parent is that eventually the kids will grow up and do the right thing not for "fear" of punishment, but rather because it is the right thing to do. So in a sense, the use of "fear" may be appropriate depending on which stage of spiritual growth a person is at, that is, as it applies to the individual reader, and even what stage of life they are at, but in a broader sense could also apply to mankind in its growth.

Or something like that. I hope at least the gist came across.
--
Shohn of Texas
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