Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC) Posts: 3,537
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For some time now, I've been very concerned about what I had been seeing taking place on the forum recently. The "abrasiveness" reached a level where it could no longer be tolerated and had to be addressed. Since the two worst offenders happen to also be two of our own moderators, I was in a real quandary as to how best to handle it. I, and others on the forum who were seeing the same distasteful situation unfold and expand, after our initial shock, were focused on trying to figure out how this could be resolved. I finally wrote to Yada to ask his for his advice and I've posted his response to me below: Quote:
Jim,
In that this is now the third time over the past several months that you have brought the caustic posts of a once valuable contributor to the Yada Yahweh Forum to my attention, I assume that you did so because you want me to respond to his augments—something I have consistently refrained from doing. Either that, or you forwarded this link to me to remind me that all of those who have complained recently, saying that this individual has developed a horrible attitude, were right, and that he should be encouraged to desist, change his tone, or go away before he drives many others away. Also I suppose that you wanted to remind me that there is a consequence of continuing to ignore this divisive situation—especially as this person becomes ever more antagonistic in his posts.
As the founder and initial administrator of the forum, through your dedication to it, you have earned the right to express these concerns. It must tear your heart out, as it does mine, to see the forum you nurtured abused in this way, especially now that this individual appears to be on the cusp of unwittingly using a good friend to advance his agenda. And recognizing how insightful and relevant his posts once were, it is depressing to witness him so unnecessarily squander his considerable intellectual gifts, and in the process become so defensive, self-absorbed, and demeaning to others.
As I have shared with you previously, there are three reasons why I have felt that it would be counterproductive to engage in this situation. First, I don’t have a problem with people personally criticizing me. I’m admittedly imperfect and unqualified—and all too often wrong. I expressly ask people not to trust me, but to instead do the research themselves. Further, I live in a glass house. In my own emails, in my own books, and on my own site, I am often acerbic in dealing with the delusions of religious people—especially on issues which matter. Albeit, with the attitude problem you and so many others have brought to my attention, this person’s inappropriate tone is not being manifest in his personal emails, his book, or his site, but instead on our site. The people he is demeaning aren’t religious, ignorant, or irrational, and the agenda he is promoting is without merit. In all of these years, I have never responded to anything said about me or my books in the Yada Yahweh Forum. In fact, aside from the occasional email exchange which is posted there by others, you won’t find anything from me anywhere in the Forum. The two or three times over these many years that I have engaged, has been on the periphery as an advisor, and only then when it came to helping you weed out unnecessarily arrogant, caustic, or agenda-driven, self-promoting participants. Since this situation has evolved to the worst such case either of us has witnessed in this regard, for the first time ever I am directly engaging and writing this response personally.
That is not to say that I never defend what I’ve written. I’ve dutifully responded to a thousand email criticisms of Prophet of Doom which have been sent directly to me, all because the evidence and reasoning contained in the book is capable of enlightening and saving souls. Similarly, while I have only received a handful of email letters critical of Yada Yahweh, and none critical of Questioning Paul, I have responded to each for the same reason.
Also, since the Yada Yahweh Forum attack on The Great Galatians Debate volume of Questioning Paul is, by the critic’s own admission, limited to authorship, not its message, I see no reason to break my streak of never having responded to any specific argument brought against me personally or my writings in the Forum. Yada Yahweh Forum members have always been and remain free to criticize me and my books. As evidence of this (while it has not been helpful here), I have received scores of letters constructively criticizing something I have written in Yada Yahweh, every one of which has helped me improve the book. So this is about trying to eliminate a caustic attitude, not critical content.
Second, a rebuttal to this individual’s posts would be a complete waste of my time—even the reader’s time. Even if every argument he raised were true (and many are not), and even if he proved his case (which he did not always do), most of what he said would not matter. The problem with Paul’s statements in Acts, Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians, and Romans isn’t the identity of the author nor the vocabulary deployed; it’s the errant message!
Unfortunately, surprisingly, the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul are not truthful. They were not inspired by God. They are overtly opposed to the Torah. Moreover, Romans, which is universally attributed to Paul, conveys the same message found in Galatians. In fact, Galatians serves as the foundation for Romans. Further, there are anti-Semitic remarks and errant predictions in Thessalonians and disingenuous statements in addition to demonic overtures in Corinthians. And that makes any attempt to separate Paul from Galatians irrelevant. As such, refuting these theories would be a counterproductive distraction.
The only potential value of distancing Paul from Galatians would be if Galatians alone, among all of the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul, was anti Torah and errant. But this is not the case. They are all rotten.
The Great Galatians Debate Volume of Questioning Paul uses what Yahuweh revealed in His Torah, and what He wrote with His own finger on stone tablets, to demonstrate that the great preponderance of people who rely upon the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul will die—billions of them. And many if not most of those who promote Pauline Doctrine (something no one appears to be doing in the Forum, thank goodness) will spend their eternity in the abyss. Revealing and explaining why this is so, is essential to our salvation. Determining who wrote some or all of these letters and ascertaining why the vocabulary differs somewhat among won’t save anyone. There isn’t anything to be gained by irritating or dividing people over any of this. Thus since the issues of authorship and terminology are superfluous to this essential warning, and since I have read nothing in the Forum to suggest that any of Paul’s letters are truthful, I will not debate these issues.
Third, I would be surprised if the offensive, agenda-driven, tone improves post exhortation. The posts have become so belligerent, so self-promoting, and personally demeaning of others, it doesn’t appear that their author is capable of handling criticism—constructive or otherwise. If I am correct in this assessment, no matter what is said, he will continue to lash out, personally demeaning those who do not acknowledge him as being completely right, even unquestionably truthful, while at the same time acknowledging that his imaginary opponents are wrong, biased, and even inferior in their thinking. Therefore, in all likelihood, nothing will be accomplished by denouncing his inappropriate tone other than to make matters worse. Any reply, no matter how sincere or sensitive will probably increase his hostility and divisiveness as he attempts to get people to side with him and against me. I’ve seen this same situation play out many times before, and always with the same result.
Jim, I have read this individual's initial comments—at least as they appear in this section of the discussion you sent me from the Yada Yahweh Forum. While his information is often sound, albeit incomplete, and his judgment sometimes flawed, with half-truths permeating his once immaculate posts, it’s his approach and attitude toward others he views as less intellectually gifted that many like myself find deplorable—unacceptable. Further, his personal evaluation of his plagiarized title, "The Great Galatians Debate," is specifically designed to be divisive and self-serving, even demeaning of others. And yet from beginning to end his research project wallows in the irrelevant realm of word phrasing and scholastic opinion, and it consistently ignores the only thing which actually matters: the errant message contained within Galatians.
As you may know Jim, I have received three unsolicited rebuttals to what many of us consider to be a misguided adventure into the pedantic realm of what scholars call “textual criticism.” When asked privately, I have written and shared three evaluations of my own. In each case, the merits of his article were rendered moot, and his most powerful arguments were refuted. It wasn’t difficult to do so, even in the section he is most proud of, so none of us are bragging. But we didn’t share what we had written publically for the very reasons listed above. And I won’t do so here.
The fact is, The Great Galatians Debate volume of Questioning Paul is focused on how the message contained in Galatians, as well as other testimony attributed to and claimed by Paul in Acts, Thessalonians, Corinthians, and Romans differs from Yahweh’s Word. So, other than to steal my title without permission, the other “Great Galatians Debate” isn’t actually a refutation of the evidence I have provided to demonstrate that the letters attributed to Paul are not true. And that is all I care about.
Furthermore, Paul’s abysmal testimony in Acts, and the horrid content of the letters claimed by Paul and addressed to the assemblies in Galatia, Thessalonica, Corinth, and Rome—some or all of which are surely attributable to the individual known to us as Paul—are individually more than sufficient by themselves to expose and condemn Paul as being an errant messenger, a false prophet, and an uninspired and unappointed apostle. And that makes the debate over which of these errant religious documents the person known to us as Paul actually wrote nothing more than a pointless scholastic exercise—something I shared with him before he engaged in this endeavor.
Those whom I have grown to respect in the forum, those who have recently written me about this person’s migration from very insightful to caustic posts, all say that the only reason they have not responded directly to him is that they have witnessed how inappropriately he has responded to others. They don't need or want the aggravation. They have simply distanced themselves from the Forum, and chosen not to participate any more.
But all of this begs the question: why would anyone feel the need to express themselves as he is now doing in these posts? Recognizing that it doesn't matter who wrote Galatians or Romans, only that Galatians and Romans are wrong, one must ask: what is he trying to prove, and to whom is he trying to prove it? It all reads like someone struggling with personal insecurity—and not like someone trying to learn or share "the truth." Somewhere along the line a good and very smart person, seems to have lost his way.
Over the course of the past few months, you and others has directed my attention to the following examples from this person’s more recent posts:
“I'm sorry, but you appear to have just completely, totally and utterly missed the entire point being made in the document. Download it, read it, and compare it to Yada's QP. I shouldn't really have to explain everything else.”
“I'm certain that other people have also read the document, and I'm a bit surprised that only you have actually made any comment about it, especially as I do kinda contradict most of Yada's "Questioning Paul" website.”
“I certainly see the apparent contradiction, and saw it myself - I'm merely following the scholar's criteria for deciding what should be undisputed and disputed and applying the scholar's own criteria against Galatians.”
“Heh. Didn't mean to come across as a jerk.”
“I had always thought said theory was ridiculously ludicrous, and now I know why.”
“Okay, this is probably going to be the 15th time I've explained this. Hopefully someone may listen to and understand what I say this time around.”
“No, we're not, because that would be ludicrous, nonsensical and incongruous.”
“No, because that too is completely stupid.”
“It's time to change your way of thinking, because your thinking is in error.”
“So, because I'm pointing out the inaccuracies and fallacies in peoples thinking, assumptions, presumptions, false premises, conjectures, imaginations, postulations, and ridiculous fancies, and because I don't agree with Yada (and provided an 118 page document & 56 page Appendix outlining numerous problems with thinking that Paul wrote Galatians, which no one has refuted), and because I'm standing up for trying to ascertain the truth without bias, I'm apparently the one who can't see the forest for the trees?”
“Ken also pointed out how trying to twist Genesis 49:27 to say something about Paul was completely absurd and grotesque, and no one refuted what he said either.”
“My quotes from Proverbs weren't meant to be taken as rudeness, but to point out that people need to take reproof very seriously.”
“If what people were saying about Paul were true, I wouldn't be proving them wrong, and I wouldn't have any problem with what they were saying.”
“So whilst I'm most certainly not Pro-Paul, it looks like I am because I'm having to correct everyone's false claims.”
“And seeing as though not a single person has answered any of my posts or questions, nor have they even acknowledged what kp wrote regarding the Benjamin prophecy of Genesis 49:27, I deem it to be absurd and unreasonable that people can demand us to answer questions, when they themselves refuse to do the same.”
“The unknown author of the article is a hypocrite and a liar, and obviously hadn't done enough searching before he started making blanket statements. And the owner of the webpage that posted this unknown author's article is also a liar when he states "Note: I do not know who wrote this and have been unable to trace it. But I checked the information and it is correct," when actually, the information isn't correct.”
“It should be noted that TGGD is not a "Theologically minded" discussion of Galatians, but an historical and meticulous examination of whether Paul was it's author or not. So if the only thing people are having problems with are my interpretation of a certain verses Theology, then it's not really all that important to the overall message of the document.”
“I'm sorry to say though, people are most certainly "picking on Paul". I can't get passed a single thread without someone saying Paul has said something or other, when actually he hasn't.”
“Sorry if you thought I was insulting you, I wasn't and I didn't mean to insinuate that I was doing so. I am however tired of all the misinformation that people have about Paul that no one apart from me seems to be challenging. I'm also tired that people aren't checking what Yada has said in QP. This all accumulated into the reply I wrote above, and I apologise - it wasn't an attack at you, and would've come about no matter who started this thread.”
“Yada's "discrediting" of Paul is but a mere emotional response that has gone completely over the top which resulted in him routinely attacking the messenger, as well as saying some of the most heinous things that I didn't think were possible… all of which isn't true, and is a severely disgusting and abhorrent paragraph that should discredit the whole of QP. This paragraph is just sickening, and no one should defend it.”
“Yada, with QP, turned himself into a hypocrite (for he constantly goes on about how wrong it is to attack the messenger, and yet, what is most of QP?), and also demonstrated that without Yahuweh's help, Yada can't translate Greek for squat (See his translation of Acts 15 and 2 Thessalonians, and check them against mine.”
“I haven't made a personal insult or attack on anyone, nor said they were "unlearned". I have answered peoples questions and queries left, right and centre, but people either ignored what I said, or brought up something else for me to answer.”
“Well, never mind all this. The Great Galatians Debate document isn't about whether Paul is an apostle or false prophet or a magical ivory mongoose - it is whether he wrote Galatians or not. So, unless people have anything to talk about Paul writing Galatians, take this tangented debate to another topic.”
“Sure, and I've given enough of my valuable time answering such people. It's time for others to have a go, so that those of us that answer these people most of the time don't go mental.”
“Well, unfortunately most people now have only read one side's core view regarding Paul, so people are hardly in the right place to make a truly informed decision on the subject. The only thing people can do at the moment is to check the one side's exhibit edevidence to make sure whether they have presented the evidence properly or not.”
“Quite a few people don't agree with Yada's take on Paul, and KP is one of them. Paul 'tisin't a dirty word.”
“And you know what, I'm done with this thread. Until someone comes and actually attempts to refute the evidence brought by me regarding Revelation 2:2, I really don't see the need for this thread to continue past this post.”
“And oddly enough, this thread has become inane as well. Absolutely inane.”
As you know, Jim, I am not alone in saying that I'm deeply disturbed by the turn earlier this year in this individual's attitude and approach. And like you, and others, I am saddened that he is now using the Yada Yahweh Forum in this way. He has gone from being a tremendous asset to a liability, from enlightening to abrasive. So if he wishes to overtly demean others while arrogantly promoting himself and his site, he should do so elsewhere. If some forum participants enjoy his attitude and style, his insights and opinions on Paul's evolving phraseology, as many seem to do, they can follow him. They are even free to remain engaged in both forums should they choose. But posts like those listed above must cease. They display an attitude which is not welcome in a site devoted to fellowship and sharing Yahweh’s Word.
Speaking of others, since they were inserted in the link you sent me, let me say that I found Ken’s comments far more right than wrong. And yet, since Ken hasn't read QP, he is unaware of the other evidence linking Paul to the Benjamin wolf, especially those found at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 7, and in the gripping conclusion of John. Further, Ken, more than anyone, knows that most prophecies have a near and far fulfillment, but lacking those insights, has missed one of the two this time. That said, KP provides a very nice recap of the near fulfillment, and I always love his approach and style. He's a great writer. I'm pleased to see that he is still engaged, sharing his considerable knowledge and wisdom.
Returning to the only issue which matters, I want you to know that while I am convinced that the evidence is overwhelming, and that the criticisms are easily refuted, I do not care even if everyone on the planet chooses to disassociate Paul with the ravenous wolf prophecies in Genesis, Matthew, and John. It means nothing to me if everyone disassociates Paul and his associates from the "false apostles" charge in Revelation regarding Ephesus. I do not care if everyone chooses to believe that an unknown ghostwriter composed Galatians without anyone noticing. It matters not to me if everyone ignores the fact that apostolos is used as a title (and less as a verb) throughout the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul. It matters not if a reader is unaware of the fact that The Great Galatians Debate of Questioning Paul demonstrates that Paul was a false prophet as a result of the timing of his errant harpazo prediction in Thessalonians, and also by referencing Yahuweh’s test in Deuteronomy 18. Nor do I care if people recognize that the Greek and Hebrew terms for prophet are defined and used more broadly than just predicting the future. It isn't especially important that everyone knows that the cities Paul visited in Lyconia were within the Roman province of Galatia, either. Moreover, it is simply helpful, but not actually essential, to recognize that the internal evidence in Galatians, when compared to Acts, demonstrates that it was not only the first letter Paul wrote, but that he wrote it in response to the Jerusalem Summit, which in turn was seen as assault on his unique message and unsubstantiated credentials, especially as they were manifest during his initial missionary tour which included two Galatian towns.
And it is for these reasons, and many others, that I haven't bothered to weigh in on this forum debate. It doesn't matter what anyone concludes with regard to any of these issues. They are all on the periphery of the only issue which actually matters: should we believe Paul or trust Yahuweh?
Besides maintaining the Yada Yahweh Forum's primary purpose, that of supportive fellowship and Scriptural discussion, I want people have the opportunity to learn that most of what is written in the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul (and most especially Galatians and Romans) is opposed to Yahuweh's Torah and Yahushua's testimony. It is Paul vs. Yah--something informed and rational people have known for a very long time. Their messages cannot be reconciled. But recognizing how long it took me to realize this, and how difficult it was for me to accept, I will continue to be open to any and all criticisms of the findings in The Great Galatians Debate Volume of Questioning Paul—at least so long as they are civil. I needed time and convincing, and so will others. Furthermore, before I came to accept this reality, I routinely dismissed all evidence to the contrary, usually by dismissing the qualifications and truthfulness of the messenger—so I can empathize with those who are critical of me. But that does not make the Yada Yahweh Forum a place to promote personal agendas, other websites with dissenting views, or to demean others under the guise of “perusing the truth.” It is important that people know that Yada Yahweh was created as a place of fellowship for those dedicated to revealing and discussing Yahweh's message—while at the same time, exposing and condemning those messages which are opposed to Yah's purpose and plan.
And in that light, I want people to know that the Christian reliance the letters written to the assemblies in Galatia, Thessalonica, Corinth, and Rome lead them away from God and to their death. I want those who are searching for the truth to know that the letters claimed by and attributed to Paul are mostly false—with just enough truth to make them beguiling. What they do with that information, whether they ignore it, reject it, deal with it, or try to conceal it with clutter, is up to them.
So from that perspective, while the debate over the wolf, the apostle, the prophet, the author, the phrasing among letters, and my personal lack of qualifications, may be interesting, knowing the truth regarding these things isn’t going to save or enhance any lives. It isn’t worth the division and irritation these inflammatory posts are causing. Especially since, in the process, the life-changing, soul-saving, evidence contained in Yada Yahweh is being undermined by the tone and nature of these posts.
In conclusion, at least from my perspective, it is the errant message that permeates Galatians and Romans, and errors which are also found in Paul’s statements in Acts, Thessalonians, and Corinthians, which must be exposed and condemned before these lies claim ever more souls. Therefore, hopefully, the forum participants who want to increase their understanding, those who want to witness more effectively and accurately, especially to Christians, might be encouraged to focus on the differences between the writings claimed by and attributed to Paul and Yahuweh's Torah and Yahushua's testimony, while at the same time encouraging people to trust Yahuweh/Yahushua, when messages differ. If they do, all of this other "stuff" won’t matter, and what actually matters, will come to matter in people's lives.
Anything that stands in the way of the objective of observing Yahweh’s Word, preparing to be effective witnesses, and supporting one another, including demeaning posts and the promotion of other sites, is to be avoided. Therefore, based upon the negative tone currently permeating the Yada Yahweh Forum, the following rules apply:
1. Personal criticisms are not allowed between forum participants.
2. Impassioned forum discussions on topics unrelated to our salvation shall be very strongly discouraged. Save your passion for things which matter.
3. Books and sites which augment our understanding of Yahuweh’s Word may be referenced once, but never promoted. Ever.
4. Personal agendas and unique proclivities shall not be pursued. The stated purpose of the Yada Yahweh Forum is fellowship and Scriptural discussion.
5. If there is a disagreement on something essential to our understanding of Yahweh’s plan of salvation, minimize overtly critical rhetoric.
6. Try to avoid being divisive, at least in the sense of motivating forum participants to take sides.
Everyone is free of course to violate all of these standards, at least so long as they do so on their own sites and in their own private emails.
Yada
Note: When I attempt to post correspondence from Yada, transposing from HTML to straight text often causes me to miss things like paragraph indentations, typo's, etc. If you notice something that doesn't look right in the rendering, please let me know. Thanks for your help. Edited by user Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:02:29 AM(UTC)
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