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Offline Theophilus  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:34:22 AM(UTC)
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I started a post recently in the Torah folder with TOM 288, 300-303 referenced and their shared how it was brought to my attention that the NLT indicates that violent rape was in view and the penalty was paying a fee to her father. Most recently I asked if we could attempt a YY style rendering of the passage since it appears that the NLT is grossly misleading. James indicated that he'll endevour to make such a rendering but saw this folder and wondered if the effort should be copied here?

I did my inital search and found that the passage is missing from the DSS and sought another old source. I posted a link for an inter-linear source and copied the relevant portions into that post in hopes that this would be a useful start. I can copy that material here and welcome input.

Theophilus
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:31:41 AM(UTC)
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very interesting dude - I would like to see this thread develop too :D
Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Theophilus  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2009 4:56:19 AM(UTC)
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I'll copy over the relevant part of the post from the torah folder:

James wrote:
Usually the MT isn't too bad, unless you are dealing with Messianic prophecy, then you have to worry. Out side of that, the best thing to do is look at the root letters and see what other words are formed with those root letters.

It's too late tonight, but I will take a few hours and amplify Deuteronomy 22:28 & 29 tomorrow and post it for you.


I appreciate your efforts James. In a brief attempt at reserching inter-linears based on older scources, I found a site that has one based on the Westminster Leningrad Codex with vowels along with the "Authorised Version" for an accompanying translation. The same site links to a Greek inter-linear based on the Scriveners Textus Receptus 1894 also with AV translation.

The site link is: http://www.scripture4all...rlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

Quote:
Deutoronomy 22:28
That (ki- ...) he-is-finding (imtza - ...) man (aish - ...) maiden (nor - ...) maiden (nore- ...) virgin (bthule- ...) who (ashr - ...) not (la - ...) she-is-betrothed (arshe - ...)and-he-grasps-her (u-thpsh-e- ...) and-he-lies-down (u-shkb- ...) with-her (om-e- ...) and-they-are-found (u-nmtzau- ...)

Deuternomy 22:29
and-he-gives (u-nthn- ...) the man (e-aish- ...) the-one-lying-down (e-shkb- ...) with-her (om-e - ...) to-father-of (l-abi- ...) the-maiden (e-nor- ...) the-maiden (e-nore- ...) fifty (Chmshim - ...) silver (ksph- ...) and-to-him (u-l-u- ...) she-shall-become (theie- ...) to-woman (l-ashe- ...) inasmuch-as (thchth - ...)which (ashr - ...) he-humiliated-her (on-e - ...) not (la - ...) he-shall-not-be able (iukl- ...) to-dismiss-of-her (shlch-e - ...) all-of (kl - ...) days-of-him (imi-u - ...)


What I hope to see is if something like this can be rendered more like a YY style amplification and Hebrew root words? The link also shows Babylonian style Hebrew text.
Offline James  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:44:03 AM(UTC)
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Deuteronomy Chapter 22 wrote:
28 If (kiy - surely and indeed, rather, instead, but, except for, but if, because, for, for the reason of, when, and if) a man (ish) finds (motsa – discovers, uncovers, learns the location of, obtains, and comes to posses) a young woman (bethulah - a mature young woman that has never had sexual intercourse, and under the authority and protection of the father, a class of young female, though the class may be virgins, the focus is on the youth group, dear one, one cared for, loved one, formally, virgin daughter, a young woman who is loved by the father, with the associated meaning of being pure, innocent, and under the protection and care of the father), a female child (naarah – female of any age between infancy and adulthood) which relationally (asher) is not betrothed (aras – pledged to be married), and takes hold of (taphas – seizes, captures, dishonors, and profanes) her, and lays (shakab – sleeps, or has sexual intercourse) with her and they are found (motsa – discovered, uncovered, arrested), 29and the man (ish) who laid (shakab – slept, or had sexual intercourse) with her, gives (nathan – places, sets, commits, entrusts, delivers, and bestows in a healthy and enduring fashion) unto the female child’s (naarah – female of any age between infancy and adulthood) father, fifty (chamishshim) silver (keseph – silver metal, money, property or belongings), then to him she will exist (hayah) as a wife and woman (`issah), under (tachath – beneath, underneath) her who relationally (asher) he afflicted (anah – disturbed, oppressed, afflicted suffering, raped, humbled, violated sexually), he will not be capable of (yakol – be able to, succeed in, overcome in, prevail in) sending her out (shalach) all of (kol) his days (yowm).


The biggest thing I noticed here is that the word tachath is usually ignored in translations. It appears that most translate it along with ahser simply because. But since ahser can mean who, and tachath can mean because, but most prevalent definitions relate to being underneath I choose this rendering. If because was intended, asher alone could have been used, but since tachath was used as well, it is likely that it was meant to convey something other than because.

Disclaimer: This is my translation, and is subject to error, so if anyone finds error in it, please let me know.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Theophilus  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 2:47:55 AM(UTC)
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Thank you for your work James. I too welcome reviews, but on my first pass, it looks good to me and even in a YY format. What source text and tools did you use?

I'd guess that "under" would be frequently omitted in modern translations due to feminist sensibilities of a young wife "being under" her husband?

Offline James  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:55:03 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
Thank you for your work James. I too welcome reviews, but on my first pass, it looks good to me and even in a YY format. What source text and tools did you use?

Source texts:
The Andersen–Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible
Lexham Hebrew–English Interlinear
ESV English–Hebrew Reverse Interlinear of the Old Testament
Tools:
The Andersen–Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible: A Systematic Glossary
The Andersen–Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis of the Hebrew Bible
Brown–Driver–Briggs Hebrew Lexicon
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Hebrew)
Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, by Friedrich Heinrich Wilhelm Gesenius
Strong’s Concise Dictionary of the Words of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Testament
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
NAS Greek–Hebrew Dictionary

All linked through Logos, a huge time saver.

I've been working on translating the verses that Yada hasn't done. I've adopted the YY style, because I like the way it works.

Theophilus wrote:

I'd guess that "under" would be frequently omitted in modern translations due to feminist sensibilities of a young wife "being under" her husband?


Actually the under appears to apply to the man, not the woman. In essence I think it is saying that he will exist under her as punishment for his defiling her.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
Offline Theophilus  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:22:01 AM(UTC)
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On re-reading the passage I agree with your take on "under" that is the humiliator being bound under the humiliatee / humilateed.

The principle still applies elsewhere that her father could still deam him an unsuitable husband, keep the dowery and send him on his way.

I was curious which Logos package you went with. That looks hugely useful and appreciate sharing the final product.
Offline James  
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:45:30 AM(UTC)
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Theophilus wrote:
I was curious which Logos package you went with. That looks hugely useful and appreciate sharing the final product.


I went with the Original Languages Package, the others are out of my price range. There are a few books I would like to add to it, but the OL package is great.
Don't take my word for it, Look it up.

“The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it.” ― Ayn Rand
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