hehe onwards to the farm! Im all for that! :D

We have to do what we can, in this case its religion first thats the main beef to Yah. He dosnt have a problem with "humanity" unless it removes or distorts His path to Him or causes us to stray from His path (which yea its pretty much anything and everything). He does have a problem with putting objects before Him, which is things like money etc, but thats not the objects fault particularly, its our perception.

Lies is the main target. I would love to go live on a farm somewhere and forget the world - seriously. But I am not sure how useful or possible that would be.

I think the best example or pattern we have is Daniel. He didn't have any choice in the matter: he had to live in Babylon. He couldn't physically move to where he wanted to---Jerusalem. But by honoring Yahweh, he found that Babylon didn't have to live in him.

Daniel (1) refused to compromise his faith in and relationship with Yahweh, even if it meant facing the death penalty; (2) didn't make any attempt to conceal his beliefs; (3) lived simply and modestly, even though his God saw to it that honor and riches were piled upon him; (4) served his community and king, but always in accordance with Yahweh's overarching authority; (5) remained focused on Yahweh's word, not Babylon's current events, as he endured the political upheavals that engulfed the nation; (6) delivered God's message, even if he didn't quite understand it; and (7) although he never left Babylon physically, he never stopped believing in Yahweh's promises of restoration.

Monasticism isn't the answer, nor is cultish isolationism. Like Daniel, we need to learn to walk through the world without letting the world walk through us.

kp

that post gets my mind churning kp. thats awesome. you guys continue to amaze me. every single one of you. may Yah bless you all.

Is Babylon the world and the Whore of Babylon the false religions of the world, including the christian churches, or are they the same? I look at it that way, so are we commanded to come out of the world (Babylon) or out of false religion (Whore of Babylon)? I see it as we are to come out of her false religion (churches) and into the world (Babylon), we are called to serve the world by sharing the gospel. If we stay in the churches (Whore) we bow down to their false god (Nebuchadnezzar). I think the church is the image that speaks and if we don't accept their false god we will be excommunicated, which is like being cast into outer darkness. For they will killed us and think they are doing the work of Elohim.

As for going it alone, don't we have Elohim, the Father, Son, and Set-apart Spirit to teach, comfort, and fellowship with?

1John 1:3 "that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son the Messiah."

Yea, I was thinking the same thing about KP's post. Good stuff.

And about us bowing down to the false idols if we stay in the churches, i don't think thats the case. After all, (might as well use Daniel again!) Daniel was physically in the room/area when Nebuchadnezzar told everyone to bow down before the idol, BUT, although Daniel was physically there, he didn't bow down to the idol, but stood firm with Yahweh against that. So I don't think we have to neccessarily leave or we will be counted as worshiping false idols, etc., but we need to stand firm and actively NOT worship those idols. So I don't think that we are automatically grouped in with them by our proximity, but rather by our actions and our heart. For YAHWEH alone knows the hearts of men, and we are not guilty merely by association, but rather by our actions. If we were to take this a step further, look at the life of Yahushua! I mean, HE walked, talked, and spent His time with some of the worst people of the time, but we certaintly don't put HIM in with their sin. He is not accountable because of their actions, but only by His own, much the same way WE are accountable to our own decisions and actions, not others.

RidesWithYah I would agree that Babylon is the world, but is the Whore of Babylon the same thing? In Rev.18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart,I sit a queen , and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Why does she say that she sets as the queen? If Yahushua is the King and the believers are the bride of Christ, they are the queen. She thinks she is the queen and believes that she is producing children and that judgement will not come against her. I would say that is the christian churches and when you look at what she was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,the colors are of royality and the blood of Yahushua and the gold,precious stones, and pearls are a representation of the believers. This seems to be the church to me. Let's not forget also that the jews were commanded to flee Jerusalem and go to Babylon (into the world) and to serve it, but not worship their false god. The world is Babylon and the Whore and her Christ is the false god, if we attend their church and pray to their god during prayer it seems to me we are walking a fine line.

Time to get a little technical. The term "whore of Babylon," while catchy, isn't quite how John described her. It was actually, "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth." You've got two things going on here, one following the other. Babylon is anything we systematically place before Yahweh in our affections---religions to be sure (not just the RCC, but all of them) but also philosophies, political theories, customs and traditions that conspire to separate us from our God. That's the source, Babylon the Great. She's a whore, to be sure (Rev 17:16), which means she's making a profit leading people astray, but she's also the mother of other whores and abominations.

In Rev 17:18, we read, "The woman whom you saw is that great city (polis) which reigns over the kings of the earth." I'd translate polis "system." It is the sum total of the underlying cause of man's rebellion against Yahweh---and it's a "trickle-down" phenomenon: it begins with the kings.

But then, you've got the actual "harlots" and "abominations of the earth" of which Babylon is the "mother." This is what these religions, traditions, and political movements have spawned: every "other god" and "graven image" (to quote the first and second commandments) that mankind embraces. This could be anything from a messianic political figure to a dream of attaining 70 virgins in paradise, to a shiny new chrome-encrusted Harley. They don't have to be "bad" things, only things that urge us to take our eyes off Yahweh.

kp