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Offline Robert9876  
#1 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:37:42 AM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

Hello Everyone,

So, me and my friend were sortof having a conversation via facebook about Catholicism. Eventually, it got to the point where he just needed to write a "note" about it (what amounts to a blog on Facebook). So, I figured I would come here to help me prepare my defense (or, rather offense) concerning Catholicisms points. Todays note was about saints, suffering, and sacraments.

First point, saints. He states (me paraphrasing) that they don't worship saints, but rather that they honor them. I guess thats okay, IF it was just trying to learn a lesson from their life or maybe remembering them. BUT, he also says that prayer to a Catholic is also a way of reaching out to the afterlife. He says that Catholics pray to saints because they want the saints to pray for them. (?)

Now for MY opinion on this. First off, I don't know how many saints are ACTUALLY in heaven now, but something tells me that not ALL of them are. Secondly, I don't think there is ANY scriptural support for praying to the dead. Or praying to ANYONE or ANYTHING that isn't Yahweh for that matter. Thirdly, I don't know what the status is of people who are dead and are in heaven is, but I don't think they can hear (or would even WANT to hear) prayer being offered to them.

On to suffering. His position (and by proxy I guess Catholicism's) wasn't wrong I don't think. He also didn't go into much detail other than saying we are to suffer sometimes because that is what Jesus (read: Yahshua) did.

But on to the sacrements (he also goes into a little detail of "Sin" according to Catholicism). He only touched upon the very first sacrement: baptism.

This is a basic paraphrase of his opening point: "Baptism is the first Sacrament and we receive it within the first few weeks of life. Now, there are three types of sin. Original sin, Venial Sin, and Mortal Sin. Original sin is something we are born with and therefore it needs to be cleansed right away."

So, infant baptism. It seems to me that this is totally useless and completely unscriptural. I'm sure Goliath and Judas and the Sanhedrin have taken a bath every now and then, but I don't think they were somehow forgiven because they went underwater. Choice is paramount, and at "a few weeks into life" one isn't ready to understand or make ANY decisions.

He then goes on to say (again, a paraphrase): "Original sin is something we are born with and needs to be cleansed otherwise we'd go to hell or purgatory when we die. And if a Catholic or otherwise baby dies, we don't believe it goes to hell, because we say that if the child is too young to decide or make a choice about his own religious beliefs, then it's his or her parents fault for not being prepared. We don't send babies to hell. That would be cruel and unusual."

So wait, a baby won't go to hell or purgatory because it can't decide, but it still must be baptized?

And the cruel and unusual part I find to be a bit hypocritical. The Catholic church, cruel and unusual? Nah! No way! (crusades, inquisition, the complete twisting of Yahweh's scripture...)

On to the 3 categories of sin: "Original sin is something we are born with and therefore it needs to be cleansed right away. Venial sin is basic sin and is perfectly fine if we don't get taken care of. A short time in purgatory (we believe most people spend at least SOME time there) and if it is small enough it won't even be acknowledged. Mortal sin is a bad thing. That's murder and big time crimes."

I thought all sin was wrong? Apparently, if its just small enough...



Thanks for reading through, and if anyone has scriptural backing for ANY position here (catholic or not, though I'd be pretty surprised for the former) or AGAINST any position in this thread, please post. Also, if anyone has a good argument either for or against anything, I would appreciate that too. Also, if I were to bring up scriptural backing for my position or an argument against Catholicism, do you know of any "tried and true" automatic Catholic defense mechanisms? (i.e., you say, Hey in blank blank, it specifically says "No, Catholicism is wrong", a seasoned Catholic would say "well in blank blank, it also says "No, Catholicism is still wrong, context matters", so are you telling me thats wrong?" (for example))

Thanks.
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Offline Noach  
#2 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:49:56 AM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127

Robert,

You are fighting a losing battle here. Not in the fact that your points won't be correct, but in the fact that you are attempting to have a rational and logical debate with someone who is apparently an ardent catholic apologist. This is an impossibility no matter how much Scripture you present to defend your point. The only way you can have a rational debate with someone as fervantly devoted as I am guessing this individual is, is for them to change their thinking. Otherwise you are wasting your time. If they can't change their perspective there is no hope. This is the consequence of religion and why religion is so destructive. There is no point in debating specifics, start with Yahuweh's name and see if you can get them to change there thinking. If not, move on.

Noah
Offline sirgodfrey  
#3 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:14:23 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

I second Noach's response. If it is one thing I have come to learn after Yah spoke to me and started showing me the knowledge He did, it's the fact that most people will simply not be rational and logical when you try and present information to them. Again, as Noach has stated, it is the consequence of religion (as well as other influences). You can show them artifacts, you can show them prophecy, you can show them YHWH name on ancient texts... it simply won't matter if they are not even trying to hear it.
Offline Robert9876  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:16:03 AM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

Thank you for your post Noah!

While I would have to generally agree with your argument, I will continue to fight. I am going to strive to give him every possible scriptural piece of evidence and every piece of logic and reasoning that I can possibly find. At the very least, his choice will become extremely crystal clear, and he will have no excuse. At the end of the day, I know I cannot save him, but I believe it is my (and others too) responsibilities, as sons and daughters of Yahweh, to give as many people as possible the truth, whether they choose to believe it or put their faith in the falseness of man. At the very least, he will have no excuse but his own choice, if it comes to that (which I fervently pray that it does not!).

I eagerly await more replies brothers and sisters!
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Offline Robert9876  
#5 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:21:51 AM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

And thank you for your post as well sirgodfrey! You must've posted while I was writing my last comment, as I would have included you too. But, again, while I agree with you guys, I think this will only be for good (it will most definitely be for something).

1.) If he refuses to see truth, since this will be on the internet, I can only hope someone else gets to see the truth from it.
2.) If he does see the truth, and begins to investigate Yahweh and to seek Him, then Hallelujah!
3.) And even if 1 and 2 above don't happen, then I will still have looked through Yah's word (which is always a good thing), I will have a better grasp of my own beliefs (and I am quite sure that some wrong ones will fall away), and I will be better prepared for when I meet other Catholics, maybe even ones who are questioning?

Thank you for your responses. I appreciate your opinions!
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#6 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:39:31 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

hey Robert - I am like you - I really want to find something to give Christians to chew on - something to knock down their foundations and make them rethink and change their perspective... I just cant give up on them like that yet... I dunno. Just makes me so sad to see people so passionate about somethng thing think is right...
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Offline Noach  
#7 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:35:16 AM(UTC)
Noach
Joined: 7/5/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127


You can't help those who don't want it. It looks to me like Robert's Catholic freind is more interested in defending blatant Catholic religious practices rather than entertaining the rational merits sof his religion. This is a no win situation. No amount of reasoning will get through to someone like this. They first have to be ready to change their line of thinking. Otherwise they will be more focused on defending and excusing things rather than open to logical thought.

By the way Robert, not to be picky but its halleluYAH Praise be to Yahuweh), not hallelujah (Praise be to Jah). That is unless your Jamaican.

Noah
Offline Robskiwarrior  
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:58:34 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Noach wrote:
You can't help those who don't want it. It looks to me like Robert's Catholic freind is more interested in defending blatant Catholic religious practices rather than entertaining the rational merits sof his religion. This is a no win situation. No amount of reasoning will get through to someone like this. They first have to be ready to change their line of thinking. Otherwise they will be more focused on defending and excusing things rather than open to logical thought.

By the way Robert, not to be picky but its halleluYAH Praise be to Yahuweh), not hallelujah (Praise be to Jah). That is unless your Jamaican.

Noah



I know - its crazy - I just feel like really have to try... tbh its driving me to distraction. LOL

JAH MAN! lol
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:11:00 AM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Before we begin - Catholics dont believe in "Sola Scripture" that is to say they dont believe in scripture alone. They are quite happy to add things on, as long as the pope look at it sideways.


Robert9876 wrote:
Hello Everyone,

So, me and my friend were sortof having a conversation via facebook about Catholicism. Eventually, it got to the point where he just needed to write a "note" about it (what amounts to a blog on Facebook). So, I figured I would come here to help me prepare my defense (or, rather offense) concerning Catholicisms points. Todays note was about saints, suffering, and sacraments.

First point, saints. He states (me paraphrasing) that they don't worship saints, but rather that they honor them. I guess thats okay, IF it was just trying to learn a lesson from their life or maybe remembering them. BUT, he also says that prayer to a Catholic is also a way of reaching out to the afterlife. He says that Catholics pray to saints because they want the saints to pray for them. (?)

Now for MY opinion on this. First off, I don't know how many saints are ACTUALLY in heaven now, but something tells me that not ALL of them are. Secondly, I don't think there is ANY scriptural support for praying to the dead. Or praying to ANYONE or ANYTHING that isn't Yahweh for that matter. Thirdly, I don't know what the status is of people who are dead and are in heaven is, but I don't think they can hear (or would even WANT to hear) prayer being offered to them.



Ask him for scripture to show where you were told to approach anyone but Yah. What would be the benifit? Ask him where in Scripture we are ment to embarm our "saints" and keep them in boxes. etc etc... these are all straight out of babylonic traditions.

Robert9876 wrote:

On to suffering. His position (and by proxy I guess Catholicism's) wasn't wrong I don't think. He also didn't go into much detail other than saying we are to suffer sometimes because that is what Jesus (read: Yahshua) did.


again - where in scripture and what was the context... Yahuweh isn't a sadist, He doesn't want to cause us pain - if He did He would have let us burden out own sin instead of it being removed.

Robert9876 wrote:

But on to the sacrements (he also goes into a little detail of "Sin" according to Catholicism). He only touched upon the very first sacrement: baptism.

This is a basic paraphrase of his opening point: "Baptism is the first Sacrament and we receive it within the first few weeks of life. Now, there are three types of sin. Original sin, Venial Sin, and Mortal Sin. Original sin is something we are born with and therefore it needs to be cleansed right away."

So, infant baptism. It seems to me that this is totally useless and completely unscriptural. I'm sure Goliath and Judas and the Sanhedrin have taken a bath every now and then, but I don't think they were somehow forgiven because they went underwater. Choice is paramount, and at "a few weeks into life" one isn't ready to understand or make ANY decisions.

He then goes on to say (again, a paraphrase): "Original sin is something we are born with and needs to be cleansed otherwise we'd go to hell or purgatory when we die. And if a Catholic or otherwise baby dies, we don't believe it goes to hell, because we say that if the child is too young to decide or make a choice about his own religious beliefs, then it's his or her parents fault for not being prepared. We don't send babies to hell. That would be cruel and unusual."

So wait, a baby won't go to hell or purgatory because it can't decide, but it still must be baptized?

And the cruel and unusual part I find to be a bit hypocritical. The Catholic church, cruel and unusual? Nah! No way! (crusades, inquisition, the complete twisting of Yahweh's scripture...)

On to the 3 categories of sin: "Original sin is something we are born with and therefore it needs to be cleansed right away. Venial sin is basic sin and is perfectly fine if we don't get taken care of. A short time in purgatory (we believe most people spend at least SOME time there) and if it is small enough it won't even be acknowledged. Mortal sin is a bad thing. That's murder and big time crimes."

I thought all sin was wrong? Apparently, if its just small enough...


Show me when Yah ever defines 3 groups of sin... He doesn't care - sin is sin and sin by definition is someone who goes against and disregards his precepts and instructions (Torah). Does your friend eat pork? does he celebrate the Feasts? You're friend is a moron. lol


Robert9876 wrote:


Thanks for reading through, and if anyone has scriptural backing for ANY position here (catholic or not, though I'd be pretty surprised for the former) or AGAINST any position in this thread, please post. Also, if anyone has a good argument either for or against anything, I would appreciate that too. Also, if I were to bring up scriptural backing for my position or an argument against Catholicism, do you know of any "tried and true" automatic Catholic defense mechanisms? (i.e., you say, Hey in blank blank, it specifically says "No, Catholicism is wrong", a seasoned Catholic would say "well in blank blank, it also says "No, Catholicism is still wrong, context matters", so are you telling me thats wrong?" (for example))

Thanks.


Yea there is scriptural backing against everything hes pretty much stated. Its called Scripture. Unfortunately like I said at the beginning Catholics see mans instruction as equal or higher even than scripture. This is something they would admit to, they aren't sola scripture - so really you cant argue scripture with them. They are blind and stupid and unfortunately I have to agree with the guys - the is probably no hope for him...


Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
Offline Robert9876  
#10 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:33:22 PM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

"By the way Robert, not to be picky but its halleluYAH Praise be to Yahuweh), not hallelujah (Praise be to Jah). That is unless your Jamaican."

lol. I should REALLY learn to spell... that should have jumped off the page at me...
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Offline Matthew  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:54:31 PM(UTC)
Matthew
Joined: 10/3/2007(UTC)
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil

Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Robert9876 wrote:
"By the way Robert, not to be picky but its halleluYAH Praise be to Yahuweh), not hallelujah (Praise be to Jah). That is unless your Jamaican."

lol. I should REALLY learn to spell... that should have jumped off the page at me...


Ahh, the good ole days, brings Bob Marley's Positive Vibrations (live) to memory, especially his introduction to the song on the Babylon by Bus album.
Offline StuDent  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:22:39 PM(UTC)
StuDent
Joined: 9/5/2008(UTC)
Posts: 68
Man
Location: Carolina

Shalom Robert,

I can relate to your zeal to share truth with your friends, family or anyone who'll listen, for that matter. It's an uphill battle and what others are trying to say, I think, is that our precious little time left will be better spent moving to a more receptive audience.
It is to me like KP aptly described in his "Days of Wrath" chapter about John's vision in Rev.10 of the little book that was sweet as honey in his mouth but bitter in the stomach. It's so very sad and something I myself am struggling to come to grips with. The gift of life, man's path to redemption, so beautiful to you, but few wish to hear it.
I pray Yahweh's will be done in your life, as for me, the desire to get the truth out to any who will hear it, and the daily growing sense of urgency is forcing me to move on past friends and family and content myself that a seed may have been planted that will spring up one day.

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"
Offline Robert9876  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:33:34 PM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

Thank you everyone for your honest and wise posts. I shall have to read that Revelations 10 bit...

I guess I should'nt have too high of hopes that he will listen. I will pray that Yahweh's will be done in this, and that his ears and eyes may open... but I don't know if they will.

And I don't know how ANYONE could NOT be scola scriptura (I think I spelled that one right...). I have seen enough of the world, and I know enough about past popes especially, that I don't think I'd be willing to trust anyone over scripture. What I mean to say, is that even IF I didn't believe in Yahweh's Word, I would be hard pressed to believe some of these people on face value...

I have more studying I must do.
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Offline Robert9876  
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:37:04 PM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

O COME ON ROBERT! It's "sola" not "scola"!!! Get your head in the game...

Strike two...

lol
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Offline In His Name  
#15 Posted : Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:57:02 PM(UTC)
In His Name
Joined: 9/7/2008(UTC)
Posts: 550

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I just want to know how they can shut Yahweh's glorious name out of their worship. Out of respect for their Jewish brethern???

Come on He wrote it in HIS BOOK 7000 times, you really think He was afraid we might mispronounce or misuse it?

Drives me crazy!!!!!!

So ask your buddy about that OK.

Good hunting to you, hope you bag one!
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline bitnet  
#16 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 1:08:12 AM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

Shalom,

Alrighty then... who wants to talk to a Catholic? I'm here! I was born and raised in a Catholic home and went through all the sacraments... except for the last one of course. ;-)

How did I get to here and leave everything Catholic behind? Well, I read and listened. First it was the books and magazines from the Worldwide Church of God, then it was the YY site. Could anyone else do it? Of course! If they were drawn by Yahweh and were truly seeking Him! Otherwise, it's just a lot of empty words.

Those who are drawn cannot claim anything themselves for they were not the ones to initiate the relationship. Then, they have to want to be involved in having a relationship with the Creator. They show this through their actions: seeking Him. If they are insincere in wanting to get to know Him after being called, little will move them. So their desire is important, but it is important for them to show it because only then will Yahweh share His Set-Apart Spirit with them! Without the Ruach haQodesh, we would not be able to learn the things of Yahweh!

This is why when people are not truly sincere in their search, they tend to land up in a church. But sometimes, their sincerity is bound up by the teachings of the clergy. And not knowing any better, they are left outside of a deeper relationship with Yahweh. Instead, they fall prey to religious guile and force. Would Yahweh abandon them at the GWT judgement? His mercy knows no bounds so I will not say that they are unsaved. But those who know they are wrong but continue to live a lie and promote lies leading others away from Yahweh, Scripture says that their fate is worse than death.

What I will focus on is how to share the Truth about Yahweh with those who are truly seeking Him. I am still quite wary of how Truth will affect familiar relationships, but I am now less inhibited than before. The first thing is to be committed and unafraid. Then only can you share the Good News of The Word without reserve.

I have spoken to friends who are Catholics and non-Catholics, and the response is the same. So it does not matter. Debunking Catholicism to Catholics is not a great strategy. A better one is to share Truth first. Show the Word and tell them what it really means. Show them why Yahweh's name, Annointed One and timeline matters, and how to understand Scripture better. Just telling them that the pope is misguided and that they got things wrong with Easter and Christmas and Sunday won't cut it. They have to know the name of the Father they pray to! They have to know what His name means to those He has called! They have to understand that there is only one continuing covenant, and not separate ones for Jews and Christians.

Start small with tracts that explain these things. Some of the pamphlets on www.eliyah.com may work for you in your outreach. Check it out to see if it stands with (y)our beliefs before you give it out. Otherwise, just choose your favourite Scripture verses and print those out and put it everywhere so that it initiates conversation. If they are really interested, give them the link to YY. If they do not have Net access, print out some chapters for them. That's what it's about. Be a light. Notice how light is not forceful but powerful in illuminating the dark? Like salt we are scattered around the world. We are called to be Yahweh's flavoring upon this world, wherever we are. We do what we can because we truly believe in His Kingdom, His Family, not because we want to rack up membership numbers. Don't be a battering ram. Ain't gonna work well. You fight against the powers and principalities of the world.

Well, that's my two cents about approaching Catholics. Approach them like you would any other -- honestly, openly and faithful to Yahweh.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
Offline Robert9876  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:54:55 PM(UTC)
Robert9876
Joined: 6/9/2009(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Pflugerville, Texas

mini-update...

So, I took Bitnet's excellent advice, and have read his opinions/statements about Catholicism, but I have not commented on them yet. I don't know if I will. I probably won't. I did share a little bit about how Yahweh's name is Yahweh, that Lord=Ba'al, I told him (in general terms) that Yahweh HATES religion, and wants a RELATIONSHIP, not a set of meaningless, essentially selfish rituals, I told him a little bit about the DSS, how they differ dramatically from the Masoretic versions, talked a little bit about how there was no "J" as we know it until like the 9th century or so... I also shared links to YY, to Swalchy's website The Way To Yahuweh, and another short, free, online book (I don't remember what it was called, but it was posted recently in a different thread...).

So far, things are better than expected. He is interested in the topic at least, and is going to start researching. So, Yahweh's grace permitting, we may yet see some positive progress! Again, thank you everyone for the great advice. I guess I should remember that you do not have to work to disprove lies: knowing the truth automatically does that for you!
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Offline Robskiwarrior  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:50:05 PM(UTC)
Robskiwarrior
Joined: 7/4/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Man
Location: England

Robert9876 wrote:

talked a little bit about how there was no "J" as we know it until like the 9th century or so...


try 17th Century :)

Sounds like you have possibly started something! Awesome :D
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Offline sirgodfrey  
#19 Posted : Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:18:11 AM(UTC)
sirgodfrey
Joined: 10/2/2008(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: North Carolina

This is great news. I am glad to hear that "you have possibly started something!" :o)
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