Before I get into this a little deeper I want to post a verse from John. I know KP has a “take on this”, but I take this verse very literally…

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

The Father cannot be seen or heard by man. He is an invisible Spirit. The Son declares him as his “Word”. Therefore we have learned now that every time man has interacted with “God” it was never with the Father directly – it was the work of the Godhead – which includes the Son and/or the Father. Lets look at some concepts of how God uses angels.

Exodus 23:20-23 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Note what's being said, "I send an Angel before thee." In Exodus chapter 3 the scripture stated, "He has come down to deliver His people." Who came down? The angel of the Lord came down, not the Lord Himself. Notice what else the verse says, "Beware of him, and obey his voice, he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him." Only God can pardon transgressions, not an angel. Note this, "But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak." This particular angel brings the message to men and he will speak only what the Lord tells him to speak. Now, let's go to the book of Isaiah chapter 63 and see this a little clearer…

Isaiah 63:9-10 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

This spirit was called two different names, the angel of his presence and holy spirit. Remember in Exodus the 3rd chapter the angel told Moses, "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Meaning this angel is also holy or a holy spirit, and also remember that this spirit was called the angel of the Lord.

Lets go to the book of Judges. PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHOSE TALKING!

Judges 2:1-2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

It's the angel that is doing the talking correct? Notice what he says, "I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you: but ye have not obeyed my voice”. The angel has no covenant with Israel. The angel is simply speaking for the Lord. Remember in Exodus the 23rd chapter it states, "if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, whose voice? The angel of the Lord. And do all that I speak then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries." Also remember what it said in Isaiah 63rd chapter, "they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them." Let's see what happened as a result of Israel's disobedience and how this holy spirit fought against them.

Judges 2:3-4 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their Gods shall be a snare unto you. And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.

The angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, not the Lord Himself. This angel simply brings the message from God to the people. Each time this angel spoke he sounded as if he was God Himself. By saying, "I made you to go up out of the land of Egypt, I made a covenant with you, I will be an adversary unto thine adversaries. But we see plainly that it is in fact the angel that is speaking.

In all the verses we have read in the Old and the New testaments, each time the angel of the Lord, the angel of the Lord's presence, the spirit of truth, the good spirit, the holy ghost and even Gabriel were all sent by the Godhead – the Father or the Son.

Lets look at Psalm 78 regarding the events that happened in Exodus…

Psa 78:47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.
Psa 78:48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.
Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Who brought forth the plagues? It was evil angels who brought them forth. The Lord operates through His angels. The Lord uses evil angels as well as holy angels to bring things to pass.

In the case of Genesis chapter one where it states, "the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" it wasn't God Himself, rather it was a spirit of God. The Lord sent forth His spirit or His angel to create and renew the face of the earth, as it is stated in the 104th Psalm. Now that we see that the Lord operates through His angels why did Moses write "the spirit of God moved upon the waters," instead of angel? Let's return to the 104th Psalm and find out why Moses chose the term spirit.

Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

We see that the angels are made of spirits. That's why Moses wrote the word spirit and not angel. The simple fact is that angels are spirits. In the case of Genesis chapter one verse two the definition or the portrayal of the word spirit is "angel" and not a phantom. Notice in the scripture above the Lord also calls them His ministers? What is a minister? One who takes care of, tends to, or cares for. That is exactly what the spirits/angels of God do; they take care of the Lord's business. The spirit that moved upon the waters was simply an angel.

Who talks for God during this event…

1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.

Let's take a look at Ezekiel…

Ezekiel 2:1-2 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Note what Ezekiel states; "I will speak unto thee." When the Lord spoke to Ezekiel what happened? The second verse states, "the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me." So, when the Lord spoke, the spirit entered into Ezekiel. Was this some type of possession? And in John we read…

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Note this, "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Plain and simple, the Word of God is "spirit". Notice what Paul states in Colossians:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Paul states; "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom." So, if the words of God dwell within us, what does that mean? The spirit of God dwells within us! John chapter 6 and verse 63 states that "the words of the Lord are spirit", correct? Now we should understand what Paul meant in Romans the 8th chapter the 9th verse. Where he states; "the spirit of God dwells in you," he simply means, the word of God that dwells in us. Not a puff of smoke, as the status quo put forth.

This is a paradigm shift. Let it sink in.

PS

Well let me say I am impressed with your translation work. I am sure it was very insightful for you to do that. And thanks for sharing.

First, we do have a lot in common in regards to religion, government, and other issues. However, in spite of what we have in common and in spite of what views I share with KP I see some major differences of opinion. I feel you guys are taking the easy path of understanding so to speak in that you seem to accept some of the usual “Christian” understandings of these subjects. The Holy Spirit is one good example. Yet when it comes to other dogmatic issues we all tend to agree on how false they are.

This time around I’ll hash them out, one topic at a time, as we are doing now. I am sure my views are very different than almost all you folks since I did not grow up under any major religious influence and my views are from strictly studying the word and testing these views over and over. And they hold up. And when they don’t I will modify my views. Will you?

Secondly I will use my Messianiac Translation for you guys here, except when I am pulling from notes. It does not use the word Jesus for example, Mary is Mariam, and God is Elohim (not Yahweh). If that is the protocol you want – no problem.

Okay, back to the topic at hand. I am trying to convey to you that Elohim is sitting in heaven. He has been there forever except one time in history when the Son and Father split up for a while so the Son could be made into flesh (begotten). Then the Son goes back to his throne perfected. In my opinion this is the only time Yashua left heaven. He did not come to the earth and talk from a bush. He did not change into a visitor and meet with Abraham. Now he MAY have talked to Adam personally, but that is because his throne may have been on this earth in the garden of Eden (another topic).

So now when God (the Godhead – Elohim) wants to send you a message the concensus of most Christians is that he acts like a ventriloquist and makes a little piece of himself pop up in strange places and strange ways to chat with you. He has some “smoke” or “tentacle” or some “spiritual side” that creeps into your conscious mind and tells you things. That is the best description I can give of what I think you and most Christian folks are trying to say. And if that is true then this spirit should be God since it is of God and therefore there is a Trinity of power or manifestation if you will even though this Spirit is not of itself by nature. (it gets confusing this way folks)

This train of thought does not hold up under scrutiny considering the whole of scripture in analyzing this thing called the Holy Spirit. The HS is called a “he” regardless of the Hebrew aspect of the word. It talks. It is commanded by the Godhead. It hears. It loves. It gives gifts. It grieves. It is totally defined as an entity – not just a manifestation. And if it is its own being then we have to decide some other issues:

1. Is there only one and if so how can he be in a million places at once (if there are a million receivers of the HS lets say).
2. Why is he not named? He is obviously very important. Even Michael is named.

I have come to the realization that the HS is a cover name much as the CIA or FBI is. If the president wants to send a message to China he sends the CIA. Send a message to the pope? Send the CIA. Can you name one person in the CIA? No and I cannot either. But we know they exist. And there are many of them. And the president uses them at his will (unless they use him, but that is another topic). There are MANY Holy Spirits – not just one. They are angels/spirits.

Elohim – in heaven, uses these spirits at his will in real time to send you a message. “Do not turn left” you think in your mind just as the car passes you on the left at 120 mph. God did not want you to die yet so you were led by the HS instantly. Some people he lets die by the way – especially those calling themselves Christians that do not do a darn thing he says (but that is another topic).

Earlier I posted 4 verses that tell you point blank that Moses received the Law from ANGELS and you proceed to tell me that that is not true. What can I say? I searched hard to find those scriptures and they totally support my whole premise. Then I post these verses – which are so straightforward how can you miss this point?...

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak…

Judges 2:1-2 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt,…(it was the angel being used for the voice of God)

1Th 4:16 Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, (why does god need the archangel to shout?)

Angels are talking for God! Who gave the Revelation to John? An angel did even though it is Yashua being quoted.

Rev 1:1 Revelation of יהושע Messiah, which Elohim gave Him to show His servants what has to take place with speed. And He signified it by sending His messenger to His servant Yoḥanan, (he used his angel)

(Is that a better translation?)

You seem fixated on your view. I do realize my perspective of the HS is very different and I only know a handful of people that see it my way. But, it makes total sense and I am sure I am on track. I have prayed about it, studied it, researched it, and it makes sense. More sense than God manifesting a puff of smoke in a bush and turning into a ventriloquist from heaven.

Exo 3:2 And the Messenger of יהוה appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. And he looked and saw the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. (God then spake through this angel otherwise why is he even mentioning this angel?)

Summation…Elohim (Father and Son) use angels. There are evil angels, regular angels, an archangel, cherubs, and Holy Spirits. These Holy Spirits cannot fall. They are a special breed. They have his “name” (power/authority). They cannot change their mission once they are sent. God communicates through angels. I have said about all I can say on this.

And the reason I bring this up? Is that if we agree that the Holy Spirit IS/ARE ANGELS then we know they cannot be FEMALE! They are neuter gender. They do not mate with humans either. I was confused as to where this post went, and I see you branched it to here, but the whole point of this was to define this entity.

After a post or two more here I have a few End Times questions to present after reading KP’s stuff. So, lets finish this since we probably will have to agree to disagree. I would like to here some feedback from others if they are inclined to agree with this view. It is a paradigm shift.

As I look at the verses preceding the ones you posted it reads...
Exo 19:3 And Moses went up to God. And Jehovah called to him from the mountain, saying, You shall say this to the house of Jacob, and tell it to the sons of Israel.
Exo 19:4 You have seen what I did to Egypt; and I bore you on wings of eagles and brought you to Me.
Exo 19:5 And now if listening you will listen to My voice, and will keep My covenant, you shall become a special treasure to Me above all the nations, for all the earth is Mine.

But at Exodus 23:20-23 we read this...
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

In those verses you quoted it must be an angel, in that shape, that is doing the bidding of God. We have 3 options actually:

1. Yashua has left heaven and is doing this form.
2. The Father himself has manifested as a cloud.
3. The Holy Spirit is doing this.

1. Even though many folks think Yashua has been back and forth to the earth many times I totally disagree with that thought. I don't even want to go there.

2. The Father uses angels to be his mouthpiece (along with prophets and his son). He seems to never speak to anyone directly. I refer back to John 5:37...

Joh 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."

This verse is very straightforward to me. The Father, being of spirit, does not talk to anyone directly. As I have searched for confirmation of this I have come across many verses, especially important verses, that preface the Father (or Son) speaking through an angel. They say, "Here is this angle here and now God has something to say". Once you see this happening and recognize it then he does not have to tell us this everytime. We see it in Luke 3 when Yashua is getting baptized, in Revelation 1:1, in Exodus 3:2, and the fact is confirmed 4 times that angels gave the Law to Moses - not God himself (which I posted twice already).

Lets look at Luke 3 for a second...
Luk 3:21 And it came to be, when all the people were immersed, יהושע also being immersed, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk 3:22 and the Set-apart Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven saying, “You are My Son, the Beloved, in You I did delight.”

Here we have Yashua on the ground in the flesh - a MORTAL man. We have the set-apart (Holy) spirit also here in a shape. Why do we have to know he is here? What difference does it make? Then we hear that God spoke. Now if our rules are true and God has never spoke to anyone it must mean the set-apart spirit (Holy) DID THE TALKING for God. Jesus is on the ground, no one has heard the Father since the son is the Word, and the angel (spirit) talked. The angel also took on a shape as a dove. And the Father has NO shape.

So, getting back to your verses...the cloud shape must somehow be done by the Holy Spirit which is something THEY can do. The Father is not manifesting himself.

It is a simple protocol - the Father through the Son through the holy Spirits into your mind. The first internet.

In his name....

Many Bible verses speak to more than one concept at a time. John 5:37 is one of these. It can mean dual things. I realize what you guys say it says in the whole context, but it says more than that to me.

If you want to believe Moses spoke directly to God than go ahead. Most folks do. I do not. I do not belive God pops up all over the world as a cloud, fire, dove, etc. I believe he has entities that do that for him and speak for him. It is clear to me. It wasn't when I first realized this, but it is very clear now.

And again you mention the Spirit as a "she". If you see the spirit as a puff of smoke blown out of God's mouth like a smoke ring that speaks then go ahead. And if the Hebrew says that "thing" is feminine in usage then go for it. And if KP wants to right a beautiful analysis about how Yashua is the male aspect and the Spirit is comorting you like a "mother" than please revel in it. Really! :)

The truth is that the Father is the one with both energies. Yashua directs it and redeems it. The Spirits are just tendees, messengers, or workers that do the will of the godhead doing their messaging and miracles.

And lastly, your comment on John 3? No one has been born of Spirit yet. You are missing the point of what he is saying. You were born of water when you were born and you WILL be born of Spirit when you are raised from the dead in a spiritual glorified body. THEN YOU ARE BORN AGAIN - AFTER YOU DIE.

And just becasue you "believe" in God guarantess nothing. That is one verse that is part of a bunch of verses that tell you how to have eternal life. But you are taking that ONE verse out of the context of the whole.

But Yashua also said many things that you must do to enter the kingdom of heaven. Should I post some? You need to do all these things. Here, I 'll post some. Don't you have to do these too or just "believe in him". The demons believed in him. Are they Saved too?

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb 10:39 We are not like those people who turn back and get destroyed. We will keep on having faith until we are saved.

No one is saved until you are rasied from the dead. This term "I am saved" is by far one of the ego problems Christians have. When are you saved?

Heb 9:28 So Christ died only once to take away the sins of many people. But when he comes again, it will not be to take away sin. He will come to save everyone who is waiting for him.

When Christ tells you you are saved then you are saved. Until then you better learn to keep his Law as best you can and call on him when you cannot. No excuses. If you can't be there, let him know you wnated to be. Taht you were cognizant of his requirements.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: ---." Salvation will be given to only those who obey the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

PS

Swalchy...

Joh 5:37 And the Father, the One sending Me, has Himself borne witness concerning Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor have you seen His form (shape).

The word "form" here is eidos
i'-dos
From G1492; a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight. (Strongs)

We see a similar use of the word here...

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily form as a dove...(same Greek word for form)

The holy Spirit definitely had form. The Father is desribed as having NO form. Yashua was asked many times to show them the Father. He cannot show anyone the Father. He says he declares the Father. If you have seen him you have seen the Father. But that is not good enough for you. You want me to believe that the bible has descriptions of the Father talking and people seeing him? Yet Yashua told them in John 5 that no one can see the Father. He didn't mean them only. He means anybody. And lets look at thee verses...

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.

1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love having been perfected is in us.

So are those false too? And what about these...

Jn 4:20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother whom he has seen, how is he able to love God whom he has not seen?

The Father is unseeable and does not speak. He is energy and spirit.

In his name...

You keep asking me how does God speak and I keep telling you and you keep asking me. Different verses, same answer. If it is true for one it is true for all. If it says the Father spoke or the people will hear him they will. The question is simple - WHAT IS THE PROTOCOL being used? The Father uses angels to speak to you. HE does not blast a voice directly into you. He uses angels in the air. Holy Spirits. Can you not see the word Spirit = Ghost = Angel? So, if you have another verse that says "God said" it must be by a messenger - even if it does not mention one every time.

Yashua is NOT the Father and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father. You folks believe God morphs? Are you telling me he created the Son? Was the Son created by the Father?

Not all angels are Holy Spirits. Angels have free will. HS have god's name and authority in them. They cannot fall as far as I can ascertain.

1. Did Yahweh create Yashua? Was Yashua manifested? Is that what you are saying? As that what most here think? Or is yashua not the Father? His own entity?

2. God the Father has a spirit of his own. We see aspects of his spirit. He loves. He laughs. He gets angry. His spirit is similar to us having a spirit. We have a body, soul, and a spirit. Our spirit laughs, cries, etc.

There is a spirit that is a ghost as in angel.

There is a spirit is in breath.

There is a spirit as in great emotion - "in the spirit".

What I am saying is that there are many uses of the word spirit and they are not all saying the same thing. You are telling me that the Father takes some of his mind, sets it apart, and sends it to you somehow. And he sends parts of this mind that is his spirit and sets it apart for many others too. That is wht I believe you are telling me and what 99% believe in anyway. (I never get immediate converts with this topic by the way).

But when I am suggesting that there is an angel with you - right now - a guardian angel that will watch over you and steer your thought in a positive direction, and that this angel gets its marching orders from Yashua, even though this seems to me more logival than what you allege, people do not see it for some reason.

Yahweh's spirit is set apart. Yes. Those Spirits of his that are angels are set apart angels. They are Holy unlike regular angels. Yahweh does not need to tell us he has a set-apart personal spirit. Of course that is set-apart.

And why if this spirit is from Yahweh as you say then does it get called a he? Why does it speak? Again you are saying that this spirit of Yahweh in its form is like a ball of energy that somehow turns into something that can speak, trun to fire, turn into a dive shape, etc. What are these magical things?

How easy it would be for him to use an angel. Can you "dig it"?

And remember why I brought this up. If the Holy Spirit is truly an angel then it is not feminine. My buddy Joe argues with me that there is only ONE Holy Spirit. And he thinks it is an angel. I tell him he would be very busy.

I have to say that here is saying that YOU have neither heard His voice.... but it does not say that no man has neither heard His vocie....

I agree that the majority of the verse you have posted, do suggest that and Angel/Spiritual Messenger is being used, but again, there is no reason I can see to extend that to every case. There are other verses, that others have cited, that specifically say that Yahweh is speaking, or that the people saw Him.


The Father does have form, Yahushua was the Father. He said that if you had seen him, you had seen the Father. This is because Yahushua was the Father. And you say that we want to believe, it is not that we want to believe, it is that our reading of the Scriptures, and our studying of the Scriptures, has lead us to believe. And the John 5 quote does not say that no one can see the Father, it states out right that You have not seen the Father, again there is no suggestion that this is applied to all people at all times.


These two verse you have quoted that give me pause in this. I will have to consider this a little more, but for anyone interested, even Swalchy's translation of 1 John 4:12, seems to concur, it reads,

I have not been able to find an amplified translation of John 1:18, and since I am not at home, I do not have the tools to check for myself.
Although, my understanding of this would have to be that these verses are referring to the whole of God, as we are told that Yahushua is God, and people did see him, but Yahushua was a diminished manifestation of God, i.e. Not the Whole of God, as the whole of God would not fit on out world.

This is more flimsy than the previous 2 verse, as it is talking to a specific people at a specific time, and they had not seen God.


I have to disagree with you on this for sure, if you had said that God has chosen not to be seen and not to speak, that would be one thing, but I am opposed to ever putting restrictions on what God can do.


I think PS that this is an assumption with out a base. While your theory is interesting, to say that it is the same every time is presumptuous.


Yahushua said that if you have seen me you have seen the father, that means that Yahushua is the Father. if you want to use the word morph, then yes, God does take on other forms, there are too many verses, as others have posted, which say Yahweh took on forms. No he did not create the Son, he is the Son, and the Son is Him.


I still have to say that the Spirit, is Yahweh. I think when you berak it down, and look at what the word Holy comes from, it mean Separate and Set Apart. So the Holy Spirit is really the Separate and Set Apart Spirit. What is it separated and set apart from, the same thing Yahushua the Quodesh Quodesh, the Most Separated and Set Apart, was set apart from Yahweh. So she is the Separate and Set Apart Spirit of Yahweh.

As to the female of male of the spirit, yes the spirit is gender neutral, being, as far as physical sex, but as the Hebrew word used, the word chosen by Yahweh, is feminine. If Yahweh had not intended something from it, he would have used a gender neutral noun, and not a feminine one. As far as English translators, Choosing to render gender neutral words as He, that is their choice, it is not what Yahweh inspired.

Again, If you choose not to see the Spirit as feminine, that's fine. To me seeing the Spirit as a She, opened up a lot to me.

This goes completely against Yahweh your God is oneGod. If they are not the same being then there are two Gods.