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Offline shohn  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:04:06 AM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

Any of you guys with logos software able to verify what the following article is saying:

http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

I guess the reason I ask, is this seems to always be one of the things that skeptics like to point out, saying there were two or three different versions of what was said as He uttered his last breath. If the paraphrasing is correct, would that not be another way of saying "It is finished", the net effect being, that the two supposedly different utterances had in principle, the same meaning?

I know this is discussed in YY, but I don't recall the other meaning mentioned in this article discussed.



--
Shohn of Texas
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2007 8:00:33 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Let's go back to the source. What was Yahshua quoting? Psalm 22:1. Yada's amplification of this verse (YYIV, ch5) is as follows:

Quote:
"My God (‘el - God singular), my God, why (mah - by what means, how long and to what end) have You forsaken (azab - abandoned and relinquished Me, left Me desolate, separated from Me and departed from Me, damned and deserted) Me?" (Psalm 22:1)


That should end any debate as to what it means when rendered in Aramaic or Greek. The word azab says it all. Yahshua (Yahweh manifested in human form) was indeed "abandoned, relinquished, left desolate, separated from Yahweh, damned, and deserted," in spite of the fact that He was guilty of nothing. So it's a very reasonable, logical, and important question He asked (aside from the fact that by quoting Psalm 22:1 in the first person, He was claiming to be God).

The question was rhetorical. It wasn't that Yahshua didn't know the answer. He wasn't wallowing in self-pity. Rather, He wanted us to ponder the answer: why indeed had Yahweh turned His back on His only begotten Son? It was because He loved us, that's why. He had established before foundation of the world that the sacrifice of the innocent would be required to atone for the sins of the guilty. Yahweh wanted to commune with people, but we were by our nature not worthy--and therefore not able--to commune with Him. The only possible solution was to make us worthy. And to do that, God had to forsake Himself! That's love, pure and simple.

kp
Offline shohn  
#3 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2007 1:13:25 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

You quoted azab from Psalm 22, where the word azab is listed.

Does Sabachthani always = azab then?



--
Shohn of Texas
Offline kp  
#4 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2007 6:57:42 PM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

It doesn't matter. Yahshua was quoting from the Psalm in a language other than the original. It is axiomatic that He meant to say what the Psalm meant.

kp
Offline shohn  
#5 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2007 8:28:28 PM(UTC)
shohn
Joined: 7/24/2007(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Texas

kp,

Don't get me wrong, II understand why it links to Psalm 22, I'm not disputing that at all. I'm just wondering if there potentially something even deeper here, i.e. a double meaning of some kind and a sort of built in resolution to supposed contradictions in this area.

The Psalm seems to start off in abandonment - azab, but then moves towards another level in verse 16, and seems to end with, he has done it. If the Aramaic word in question CAN have two meanings (spared / forsaken), and maybe I'm reading into this too much, would it not also be possible for it to bear the "alternative" rendering of "for this my life's purpose has been completed" or to really simplify it, it is finished. It's probably a stretch, but I had to ask, and I don't think my question was adequately communicated earlier.

I did some more checking and found what is a far simpler explanation to the supposed contradiction taken from (http://www.thedevineevidence.com/skeptic_contradictions.html).


WHAT WERE JESUS' LAST WORDS?
(NIV) Contradiction 1: About the ninth hour Jesus cried out... My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? Matthew 27:46
(NIV) Contradiction 2: Jesus called out with a loud voice, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he had said this, he breathed
his last. Luke 23:46
(NIV) Contradiction 3: Jesus said, It is finished. With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. John 19:30

The passage in Matthew doesn't present a problem for us as it states these were not Jesus' last words. Matthew also partially solves our problem when he states in verse 50 that Jesus cried out again before finally expiring. The real "problem" comes from Luke and John who both claim to quote Jesus' actual last words. One possible solution is the men's position in relation to the cross. The above verses differentiate between Jesus'spoken and shouted statements. Because John was said to have been at the foot of the cross, it is possible he heard Jesus' spoken words while the others only heard the statements Jesus shouted. Because Matthew mentions Jesus shouting another statement, this scenario is possible.

However, I understand some skeptics may feel I am streeeetching this one so I'll offer a further explanation for those who may not be satisfied. The four Gospels were written by four different authors, each of them recording their version of events. Once we harmonize the Gospel accounts our explanation doesn't seem to be so difficult:

It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah." Later... Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips and offered it to Jesus to drink. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." [referring to the fulfillment of prophecy] The rest said [implying Jesus was not yet dead], "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" he breathed his last and He gave up his spirit.




--
Shohn of Texas
Offline kp  
#6 Posted : Saturday, August 18, 2007 4:33:24 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Good answers, guys. Of course, they won't silence the critics. I am continually dumbfounded by seemingly intelligent people who seek diligently for things in scripture to nitpick about so that they may feel more comfortable, more vindicated, in telling the Almighty Creator of the Universe to take His Gift and shove it. Thirty years ago, there were many things that I didn't understand, things that didn't make sense to me. Now there are considerably fewer of them, though I'm a looooong way from being omnicient. :-) Every day that goes by, I become more thoroughly convinced of the veracity of God's word, and become correspondingly more in awe of Yahweh's love. It's one thing to be burdened with ignorance. But to look for reasons to dis Yahweh---that seems the epitome of "just plain dumb."

kp
Offline Mike_Browell  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:58:14 PM(UTC)
Mike_Browell
Joined: 1/19/2008(UTC)
Posts: 51
Man
Location: British Columbia, Canada

kp wrote:
But to look for reasons to dis Yahweh---that seems the epitome of "just plain dumb."


I believe it would be just plain willfully ignorant ;)
Offline bitnet  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:44:32 PM(UTC)
bitnet
Joined: 7/3/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,120

No, KP is right... to look for reasons is to be antagonistic, to oppose directly, whereas to be willfully ignorant is to purposely ignore the facts. There is enough evidence to substantiate Yahweh's Word but many have ignored it preferring their own stories (to each his own), or tried to twist and turn the Scriptures to their own destruction (your god does not exist, nor do we need saving... you may need saving when we have more followers than you).

The idiot presuming that Yahushua was calling out to Allah is even more preposterous. He claims that "Eli, Eli..." sounds like "Allah, Allah..." In fact, he quotes the whole sentence and says that is sounds like Arabic rather than Hebrew, therefore "Jesus must be calling to the same god -- Allah -- and if so then he cannot be god." Poor chap does not know that Arabic has its roots in Aramaic and not the other way around, but then again he is a Muslim...

So the above discourse and study into the original languages and other chapters in Yada Yahweh should have presented the facts enough for those interested in Truth. For this I am now trying to understand some Greek... and some Hebrew... and now Aramaic. Call me crazy as I am in an Oriental civilisation... But it goes to show that the location does not matter as the facts are universal.
The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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