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Offline In His Name  
#1 Posted : Friday, December 12, 2008 7:38:14 AM(UTC)
In His Name
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TOM CHAPTER 12:
Quote:
We read in Genesis 2:7 that Yahweh “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.” The word translated “breath of life” is neither nephesh nor ruach—neither soul nor spirit. It’s neshamah. It is this attribute, exclusive to the human race since it was bestowed on Adam, that distinguishes man from other animals with souls, for it allows him to have a spiritual nature in addition to his mortal life.


There were other men walking the earth at this time who did not posses the neshamah.

Do these others still exist?

“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline kp  
#2 Posted : Friday, December 12, 2008 11:24:10 AM(UTC)
kp
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Good question, InHisName. One I deftly sidestepped, you'll notice :-) because I have no earthly idea what the answer might be. Another way of phrasing the key issue is: Is there any functional difference between a "human" with no neshamah and a man with a neshama who hasn't been spiritually reborn? Again, I don't know.

If I had to guess, my theory would be that though small populations of non-neshamah humans may have shared the earth with Cain and Seth, the satanically indwelled antedilluvians probably drove them to extinction long before the flood of Noah. But I haven't got a shred of evidence either way.

kp
Offline In His Name  
#3 Posted : Friday, December 12, 2008 7:09:42 PM(UTC)
In His Name
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I did a quick population search. At 4000 BCE the estimated human population was 20 to 85 million. That would certainly dwarf the neshamah-ian population for a long time. Hard to see the neshamah-ians catching up or taking over, especially since they would have been hit hard with the flood. It would seem likely that there are non-neshamah-ians today. But since I have no idea how it is transferred (perhaps it is airborne and all have been exposed), I guess it is a mute point.

I can't wait until we get some answers. :)
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline In His Name  
#4 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2008 7:14:36 AM(UTC)
In His Name
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Quote:
After being banished, Cain found a woman among the nomads of Nod, and he chose to marry her. Though it does not say so implicitly, it is implied that the men and women living outside the garden did not possess a nesamah/conscience. But the offspring of a parent like Cain with a nesamah would be so equipped. It is the only rational conclusion which can be made from the Scriptural and archeological evidence.

Along these lines, we know that the addition of the nesamah made Adam uniquely different than other animals. It is therefore what made Adam like God. Further, we know that children inherit a nesamah from their parents because Cain would not have been judged if he were incapable of knowing right from wrong. Further still, this point is hammered home in the introduction to the fifth chapter of Genesis, something we’ll examine momentarily. And lastly, in the conclusion to the flood, Yahweh declares that He achieved His purpose, that of ridding the region of corrupt souls with a nesamah. Collectively, these insights strongly suggest that both the nesamah/conscience/judgment and nepesh/consciousness and soul are passed on as part of human conception. The child of a parent with one, gets one.

So then you may be wondering, are there humans alive today without a nesamah and what is the fate of such souls? It is possible, but we aren’t told. That said, this would certainly explain some of the horrid behavior we have seen throughout human history. However, while we don’t need to know if conscienceless souls exist, or need to understand their fate, it would be reasonable to assume that their destiny would be the same as any other animal. Death would be the end of life.


Just ran across this in my reread of YY.

I would think the 'horrid behavior' would have been lead by those who have chosen to align with the Adversary, but those without neshamah would certainly be easily corrupted to follow. This seems to play into the 3 doors concept quite well.

The question I don't want to ask is, Can we discern who these 'others' are? But there is something, that I still haven't defined, that keeps drawing me back to this topic. There seems to be little information to work with, yet I keep bumping up against the questions. Perhaps the drive is to be able to discern who has neshamah and so who is capable of accepting Yah's Gift?

For give my ramblings. Does anyone have another perspective on this?
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline kp  
#5 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2008 7:44:03 AM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

I don't know if it will help you to understand the issue, In His Name, but I found myself writing about the Neshamah once again in the chapter I'm currently working on in TOM. And I ran across a very interesting Messianic connection.

Quote:
(927) Man is a spiritual being. “And Yahweh, God, formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” (Genesis 2:7) We’ve encountered this verse several times in our exploration of the scriptures, and for good reason. This is God’s explanation of what makes mankind different from the animals: we have Yahweh’s “breath of life” within us. It’s not just that we’re living beings, that is, that we have souls (nephesh) that are alive (chay), even though those very words are used here to describe our condition: “man became a living being.” But other animals—apparently all of them—are described in exactly the same terms: “living creatures” that abound in the waters (Genesis 1:20), every “living thing” that moves (1:21), more “living creatures” like cattle, creeping things, and beasts of the earth (1:24), and beasts, birds, and creeping things that have “life” (1:30). But none of these are described as having received the neshamah, the breath of life, from Yahweh—only man is. In other words, animals are “alive,” but not in precisely the same way that men are. The difference is our capacity for spiritual life: we, among all of God’s creatures, have the opportunity to remain alive even after our bodies have perished, for just as the soul makes the body of an animal physically alive, a spirit, indwelling our neshamah, can give a soul (our nephesh) spiritual life. And since spirits are eternal, our souls will endure as long as their spirits dwell within them—forever!

That is good news, of course, but it also has a potential downside. First, there’s the eventuality about which Yahweh warned Adam and Chavvah (Eve) in the Garden. If they disobeyed Him by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, they would “surely die,” and not just “someday,” but on the very day of their sin. Because we are then told that Adam lived on as a mortal man for 930 years, begetting sons and daughters, it’s obvious that physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) was not what Yahweh had been talking about. No, it was the departure of God’s Spirit (his Ruach) from Adam’s neshamah: Yahweh withdrew His “breath of life” from Adam and Eve, making them, for all intents and purposes, mere animals, spiritually lifeless, subject to corruption. But the capacity for spiritual indwelling remained intact, and I believe Adam and Chavvah, by accepting the coverings of the slain-animal skins Yahweh provided (a picture of the imputed righteousness still available to us today), demonstrated their repentance—and their salvation through the blood sacrifice Yahweh had made on their behalf.

But the “bad news” doesn’t end there. You see, Yahweh’s Ruach Qodesh—His Holy Spirit—is not the only spiritual being in existence, even if it is the only uncreated spiritual entity. But God also made angels, beings of pure spirit, some of whom rebelled against Him and became demons. These too are capable of indwelling the neshamah of a man—with eternally disastrous results. We are warned about this in Proverbs 20:27, “The spirit of a man is the lamp of Yahweh, searching all the inner depths of his heart.” “Spirit” here is a bad translation. The word is neshamah, the place within us where the spirit resides. Solomon is informing us that the neshamah discloses to God the “inner depths of the heart” of man. That is, the neshamah is the light that reveals his spiritual condition: it is indwelled either with Yahweh’s Spirit, with no spirit, or with the spirit of a demon. It is the litmus test that determines whether a person is alive, dead, or damned for eternity.

None of that, of course, reveals anything directly about the coming Messiah. But there’s one more word we should examine a bit more closely. What did Yahweh do after He “formed man from the dust of the ground?” He “breathed” into him the neshamah. Not surprisingly, the verb translated “breathed” is related to nephesh, or soul. It’s the Hebrew naphach. It means “to breathe, blow at, sniff at, seethe, or (and here’s what we need to take note of) to give up or lose one’s life.” (S) The Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains points out that when used in conjunction with nephesh (as it is here in Genesis 2:7) naphach can mean “die: formally, breathe out life, i.e., enter into the state of death, as an extension of breathing out one’s last breath of air.” In the same vein, it can also mean “to die: formally, cause to pant, i.e., make another to be in a state of anxiety or distress, as an extension of causing a person to exert great energy and so gasp for breath.”

I realize that as Messianic clues go, this one’s about as esoteric as they get, but try to visualize what Yahweh is telling us here: by “breathing into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life,” He gave him a choice: either God could breath out His own life on behalf of man, or His death would “make another [i.e., the one whose neshamah was empty or had been indwelled with a satanic spirit] to be in a state of anxiety or distress.” And how did Yahweh intend to “breath out His own life?” By setting aside His glory, becoming a man Himself—the Messiah—and offering Himself up as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of a fallen human race.


Once again, a careful study of God's word gives me goosebumps.

kp
Offline In His Name  
#6 Posted : Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:15:57 AM(UTC)
In His Name
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Thanks KP, but... more questions.

In the first paragraph you say
Quote:
But none of these are described as having received the neshamah, the breath of life, from Yahweh—only man is.
, so the neshamah is the breath of life.

But in the 2nd paragraph you say
Quote:
No, it was the departure of God’s Spirit (his Ruach) from Adam’s neshamah: Yahweh withdrew His “breath of life” from Adam and Eve, making them, for all intents and purposes, mere animals, spiritually lifeless, subject to corruption.
, here the breath of life is Yah's Ruach.

My assumption is that Adam and Chawah got a package deal; they got the neshamah and Ruach in one 'breath of life'. After the fall, the Ruach was taken away leaving the empty neshamah and this is what we inherit.

If my assumption is correct, I think I get this, but I am still left wondering (and I don't understand why) about those who don't have a neshamah.



Something New:

You wrote
Quote:
it was the departure of God’s Spirit (his Ruach) from Adam’s neshamah: Yahweh withdrew His “breath of life” from Adam and Eve, making them, for all intents and purposes, mere animals, spiritually lifeless, subject to corruption.


So Adam and Chawah had the Ruach, sinned and It was taken away.
Yahshua's salvation is the vehicle through which I receive Yah's Ruach. If I sin again doesn't the above lesson say the Ruach will be taken away?

I guess this makes me ask how fragile is our bond with Yah's Ruach?



“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline kp  
#7 Posted : Sunday, December 21, 2008 9:21:18 AM(UTC)
kp
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Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Quote:
so the neshamah is the breath of life...


Well, that's how it's translated. I'm not convinced it's a particularly good way to say it, but there doesn't really seem to be any direct English equivalent for the concept "neshamah."

Quote:
My assumption is that Adam and Chawah got a package deal; they got the neshamah and Ruach in one 'breath of life'. After the fall, the Ruach was taken away leaving the empty neshamah and this is what we inherit.


Yes, that's my take on it, based on the historical record of the fall.

Quote:
"Yahweh withdrew His “breath of life” from Adam and Eve"...So Adam and Chawah had the Ruach, sinned and It was taken away. Yahshua's salvation is the vehicle through which I receive Yah's Ruach. If I sin again doesn't the above lesson say the Ruach will be taken away?


I think I may have worded that badly. Since "breath of life" is how the neshamah is rendered in English, I implied that the neshamah was removed; but apparently, only the Ruach of Yahweh was removed from the neshamah, leaving the capacity for its re-indwelling intact. There is apparently a difference between the "permanence" of the Spirit's indwelling before and after the resurrection. King Saul is one moment said to have been "filled with the Spirit," and the next bereft of it, leaving David, upon being confronted with the reality of his own sin, pleading in agony, "Take not Your Holy Spirit from me." Apparently, it was a real possibility. But then, we read of a paradigm shift in the promise of Yahshua concerning the Spirit: "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) Note two things: (1) the Spirit would be with them forever, not temporarily, and (2) Yahshua is equating the Spirit with Himself, that is, both of them are manifestations of Yahweh---He had been with them; the Spirit would be in them.

kp


Offline In His Name  
#8 Posted : Monday, December 22, 2008 8:50:06 AM(UTC)
In His Name
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Forever is good! :-)
But, is 'keep my commandments' a caveot?
Quote:
If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father
If I stumble, am I back to square one without the His Spirit. This seems to say the same thing as what happened in the Garden, with Saul and David.

Sorry if I am being bothersome with this!
“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline BiynaYahu  
#9 Posted : Monday, December 22, 2008 9:51:32 AM(UTC)
BiynaYahu
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In His Name wrote:
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father"
If I stumble, am I back to square one without the His Spirit. This seems to say the same thing as what happened in the Garden, with Saul and David.

Sorry if I am being bothersome with this!


Don't cut the statement short!


"If you love Me, keep My commandments. AND I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you FOREVER—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."
Someone who does not dearly love or welcome, entertain, look fondly upon or cherish people with strong affection or highly esteem them with great favour, goodwill or benevolence, be loyal to or greatly adore them has not known or understood, perceived or realized, noticed or discerned, discovered or observed, experienced or ascertained, learned about or distinguished, comprehended, acknowledged or recognized God*, for concerning this, God* is and exists as brotherly love and affection, good will, esteem and benevolence.
Offline kp  
#10 Posted : Monday, December 22, 2008 10:49:10 AM(UTC)
kp
Joined: 6/28/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Location: Palmyra, VA

Your question, In His Name, is basically this (if I'm not mistaken): If I don't keep Yahshua's commandments---which are Yahweh's since Yahshua is Yahweh---then can I still be invested with the Spirit? If the answer was no---we must actually be sinless---then Yahweh is going to spend eternity alone, 'cause we've all blown it. But His whole purpose in becoming the Messiah and sacrificing Himself for our sins was to circumvent that outcome. That's why Yahshua defined what it really is to "keep His commandments." "Then they said to Him, 'What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.'” (John 6:28-29) So He's really saying "If you love Me, believe that I am the One Yahweh sent to achieve your redemption, and I will pray to the Father and He will give you another helper...."

kp
Offline In His Name  
#11 Posted : Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:42:55 PM(UTC)
In His Name
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Just read this in Spurgeon's All Of Grace, it seemed to fit well here:
Quote:
The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride: the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair.


“Because he clings to Me, is joined to Me, loves and delights in Me, desires Me, therefore I will deliver him, carry him safely away, cause him to escape from harm making him inaccessible and strong, and delivering him safely to heaven, because he has known, observed, cared for, recognized, instructed and advised others to use, designated, acknowledged, discerned, answered in, My name, authority, character, report, mark, and nature." Psalm 91:14
Offline Matthew  
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:04:21 PM(UTC)
Matthew
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In His Name wrote:
Just read this in Spurgeon's All Of Grace, it seemed to fit well here:
Quote:
The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride: the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair.


I always liked Spurgeon's work, I read his work a little differently now after reading YY, TOM, FH, etc. but I still enjoy his work.
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